To think remainers should have got behind mays deal

[Mysusie]

Just that really. Surely it would have been better to support a moderate brexit that she offered rather than supporting extreme positions such as that if the Lib Dem’s. Aibu to think it was an error not to sign up the the chequers deal?

May's Deal was a pretty hard Brexit. No customs union, no single market. To a large extend Johnson just repackaged it, ignored the problems with the Irish border and is now pretending to act all surprised that people in both NI and RoI can't get hold of things.

The problems we are having now stem in large part from the fact that we have chosen not to align things like regulations. So anyone who wants to sell between the two regions of EU/us has to do a whole load of bureaucracy that just didn't exist before. Brexit has only just started. We'll be hammering out the details for years.

@VestaTilley

YANBU. I agree completely and said so at the time.

I’m a remainer but it was obvious to me there would never be a second referendum or a better deal. The manoeuvres at the time by Tories to block it were blatantly about installing Boris and a Cabinet full of Leavers in to Government.

And I was right. I’m not usually smug about my own political predictions, but on this I am as I think Labour played this so naively and the Tories have used Brexit to effectively stage a Thatcherite coup against May’s Government.

Shame on all of them.

What was functionally different about the May withdrawal agreement and red lines than the Boris one?

Do you think the erg would have been more or less powerful in a May minority government than in a Johnson one that has a majority greater than the erg membership?

What indication do you have that May would have softened on Brexit and considered remainers' points of view considering that she had refused to do so up to that point?

As I said earlier in the thread, I am deeply sceptical that remainer parliamentarians could have meaningfully influenced tha trajectory of Brexit at any point. Once the referendum was over this was a Tory party fight and one that was between hard-line and more moderate Eurosceptics.

@Iamtooknackeredtorun

This developing narrative that the utter fuck up that is Brexit is the fault of remainers can get to fuck. You own this mess from beginning to end. It's only going to get worse. There has never been and will never be a deal that offers a fraction of the benefits that being a member state of the EU did.

I agree with this.

Brexiteers need to look at the stupid thing they voted for and take responsibility for it.

I am not to blame, I voted remain.

Johnson's majority now is larger than the ERG membership, but don't forget that many new MPs were selected on the basis that they supported Brexit. A Remainer candidate wouldn't have passed the Selection stage.

I'd really love to know what the DUP think about Brexit now.

Ian Paisley has said NI has been hit in the face with a wet kipper. He is very unhappy.

May's "deal" was not a deal it was a withdrawal agreement. It was different (barely) to the withdrawal agreement we eventually left with back in Jan 2020 but it was not a deal and therefore cannot be compared to the deal we have, nor can it be asked if we should have supported that W.A in order to ward off this deal. They are separate things. However, there is little chance that May's W.A would have led to a substantively different deal. She was always leaving after the WA passed, she was setting the scene for her successor (which everyone knew would be Boris) to take over.

We could have supported May's W.A but we would have still ended up where we are now. The only difference being that we couldn't complain about it because we would have been complicit in allowing it to happen. (hence why I can't take any labour M.P complaining about the deal, seriously. They voted for it - despite the fact that the tory majority meant there was no chance it wouldn't pass - they own it. It is their deal)

If people who voted for brexit don't like where we are then they shouldn't have voted for something which came with no plan. That is all on them. However, if they find that life outside the EU is not all it was cracked up to be, then they are perfectly welcome to start supporting rejoin. If they don't, then they are tacitly accepting the deal and whatever hardship comes their way no matter how much they complain and - as with their original vote - that is all on them.

May’s deal was way better but why on earth are you blaming remainers? Boris Johnson sabotaged that deal because he wanted to be prime minister. He agreed to it at the summit then publicly reversed his position, resigned as foreign secretary, told all his newspaper mates and began campaigning as hard as he could to replace May.

He succeeded, he got to be PM, and he stuck Britain with a deal much worse than the one May achieved.

Wait. Let me get this straight.

We had a referendum on whether we left the EU or not.
Some of us voted 'remain'
More of us voted 'leave' and therefore 'won'
Now we have left.
But its the fault of the remain voters that we left.

Right.
Umm. Ok.

If you voted leave and don't like the deal we got, tough fucking shit. You voted for it. I didn't. But that's democracy. You won. Now own it.

May’s deal was way better but why on earth are you blaming remainers? Boris Johnson sabotaged that deal because he wanted to be prime minister. He agreed to it at the summit then publicly reversed his position, resigned as foreign secretary, told all his newspaper mates and began campaigning as hard as he could to replace May.

May didn't have a deal, she had a withdrawal agreement. The main difference between the two W.As was the back stop of May's vs the front stop of Johnson's. However this was to be enacted in the event of a no deal - we have a deal, so it is immaterial.

Boris agreeing and then resigning was the Chequers proposal - not the W.A. Chequers was always going to be a no go with the EU so it didn't really matter that it was not supported at home, however it was different to the eventual withdrawal agreement she presented to parliament. Though I believe Boris did not vote for that either.

@Kendodd

One thing that annoys me is that brexiteer politicians and campaigners seem to be completely escaping blame from the people who voted Leave and are now seeking the consequences of their vote. Why aren't they being blamed? Is it that they're just very good at saying 'look over there, it was their fault ' and people believe them.

Many of them see remain politicians as 'woke' and that Brexiteers will always be on their side and have their back. They believe that authoritarian right-wing politics is great and will make their life better.

It's going to take a lot to remove that kind of entrenchment. This is why they're blaming remainers for not being more on board and the EU for the actual deal we got.

The thing is they won't vote for the types of people who would actually make improvements to their life, they'll be sucked in by Farage again.

🤣🤣 nice try, we didn't have to do anything. We had already said no, because we knew we couldn't get as good a deal as being in the EU.

Don't worry though apparently every brexiter I knew said they knew exactly what they were voting for, so no surprises for you. Enjoy.

Of course we are suffering right along there with you but at least we know we didn't cause this shit storm.

Of course we are suffering right along there with you but at least we know we didn't cause this shit storm.
I agree. And our children (and your children) won't be blaming us, they'll be blaming Leave voters, and rightly so.

Totally agree with you VestaTilley

That's well argued...

Do you mean the politicians that were voted to represent us in Europe? Farage, Widdecombe, Rees-Mogg? Do you mean those MEP type politicians - I'm not sure what you mean by they didn't want politicians from other countries voting on laws that affected us.

Even if all our MEPs voted against something, the rest of the MEPs as a majority could vote it through. So that results in laws or policies imposed on our country voted through by the MEPs of the rest of the European Parliament that we cannot vote out.

They were unelected by the U.K. yet they enact legislation on us. I think a lot of people find that very ‘unBritish’.

Ummm excuse me. I would have supported any deal that included staying in the customs union.

You can't blame us remainers now for bleating on about project fear, or is that reality, for the last 4 years.

I think the words I'm looking for are " you won, get over it".

I'm not normally bitter, but I am over this, I've watched my daughter's dreams of studying German history, in Germany be ruined.

Brexiters can go get fucked quite frankly, I don't give a damn

YABVU. Remainers were under no compulsion to get behind an outcome they neither wanted nor voted for in the first place. The onus is entirely on those who voted leave, both for the result of the referendum and the consequences of that result.

You voted for it, you got it. Quit with shovelling the shit that came as a result of your decision in the direction of those who actively opposed it.

I for one will never forgive David Cameron - or those who voted 'leave' - for wishing this absolute shitshow of a farcical mess upon this country.

Liking the Niagara Falls analogy. Very apt. And I'd willingly boot Cameron and his Eurosceptic minions over the top myself.

Even if all our MEPs voted against something, the rest of the MEPs as a majority could vote it through. So that results in laws or policies imposed on our country voted through by the MEPs of the rest of the European Parliament that we cannot vote out.

I guess in theory this could have happened. It didn't. I can't remember the exact figures but they are out there - we got our way something like 90% of the time and abstained a further significant percentage.

And then of course the UK parliament had to vote to enact the law. It didn't just happen. They could have refused, to enact it and kicked up a fuss.
However, as they were getting what they wanted 90% of the time they never felt the need to and just passed the legislation.

But our parliament passed the legislation into our law. Our parliamnet was always sovereign.

facts eh? They are pesky little blighters.

Anyway saying the elected EU parliament deciding things at a continental roundtable and going with what the majority wants is 'unBritish' is saying that compromise and working together for the common good is 'UnBritish'. And to anyone who said that - I would tell them they are 'UnBritish'

I'm not normally bitter, but I am over this, I've watched my daughter's dreams of studying German history, in Germany be ruined.

Indeed. 'There is no threat to the Erasmus scheme', promised Johnson as recently as a year ago.

Another lie.

No it was an awful deal, the fact this one is even worse doesn't fix that without the power of hindsight. But they should have supported a compromise 'soft' position, and a consistent one, instead of going for a second ref.

I voted remain but from the moment leave won I thought we were going to get a Norway style deal, based on the promises made during the campaign and the overwhelming number of times it was used as an example of what we could have outside of the EU. It was only after they won then suddenly the ERG creept out of the shadows and started arguing that anything less then WTO would be betrayal.

But instead of holding leave to those promises and examples and selling the case of Norway, which was offered (like all existing deals) by the EU, they pursued a 2nd ref too such an extent that when the indicative votes happened and Norway was the only option that almost got enough votes to pass, it didn't because of 'staunch remainers' not voting for it.

That's the deal we should be comparing this one to.

What a shock that @Mysusie hasn't posted any followup.

Yes and it's the only post they've ever made under that name.

Journo??

Journo, thicko, goady twat, what's the difference really?

I blame David Cameron. He should have got on the phone to Brussels the day after the referendum. Single Market, EFTA/EEA, bosh. “What do you mean that’s not what you voted for? We’re definitely out of the EU.”