Dh stopping maintenance

[savethegiblets]

Nc for this because I know this is a controversial subject!
Dh has a ds 21 and a dd 18.
Dh and his ex wife had a private arrangement re maintenance. Dsd has now moved out and is living with her bf in her uni town, and dss still lives at home with his mum, has never worked apart from a few weeks in a cafe, and has dropped out of college twice.
Dh has decided is probably about time he stops paying maintenance to his ex, but instead just helps the dsc out with money when they need it etc.
What do people think of this idea? I feel that at 21 and 18 this is definitely reasonable but I have a feeling dh ex will not agree...

@HugeAckmansWife

Please don't use the "bitter ex wife line". Its like using Hitler in an argument-- completely undermines any valid point you may have by making you look spiteful and mean.

That's such a silly thing to say. It's the bitter ex-wives who are spiteful and mean. Or do you think they don't exist? I suggest you read the step mother board for evidence of how vile some ex wives can be. Yet you want to blame me for pointing it out. How very odd. And comparing it to the to Hitler argument is verging on unhinged.

Direct your anger towards the truly bitter and twisted exes who do all they can to wreck the relationship their children have with their father and siblings. Or do you think I made them up?

@bobbojobbo

NRP's usually have never paid anything like half of what it actually costs to raise their children. Women on here talking about cutting it off overnight at 16/18 or anything else is not funny, its disgusting. You're not only normalising NRP's (lets face it, men) getting away with not paying properly for their children, you're encouraging them to stop entirely the second they think they can get away with it.

They're not children....

@HugeAckmansWife

Please don't use the "bitter ex wife line". Its like using Hitler in an argument-- completely undermines any valid point you may have by making you look spiteful and mean. A pp makes a very good point about NRP's rarely covering 50% of a child's costs so if you were to continue paying after you legally have to, maybe it would even. things up a bit. This is not about a bitter ex getting free money - I bloody hate that. RPs who have done and funded the vast majority of parenting have a right to feel pissed of about it, no matter how many years from the split. That doesn't make them bitter, which implies a misplaced grudge about something from long ago.

However, that aside, I think there are two ways to approach this. You are quite scathing about the mum's efforts of lack thereof to get the son motivated and usefully employed, despite admitting yourself that you and your DH have also failed on that score. So how about, as a pp said, all 4 of you sitting down as adults and working out what the plan is - you could reasonably say that CMS is for children and he is no longer one, but he needs a roof and food. If the issue is genuine fecklessness, then he gets X notice to sort himself out, or at the very least make him aware he is now responsible for claiming UC or whatever, some of which will need to be turned over to whoever is providing the roof and food. he gets no treats etc paid for unless he is contributing in some way. But if that is all happening while he is living with the mum still then your Dh should still be contributing to that. After X point, if he is still loafing about and genuinely isn't due to the pandemic or other issues, then I think its reasonable to tell the ex that you will not be continuing to help fund that. OR he comes and lives with you, as you said upthread, he would only be doing that if he was working and contributing. So tell the mum, CMS stops in X months / weeks but he can then come and live with you. If either of them refuse that option then it is her choice to continue to support her adult child without help.

At least op has tried. And I would not be offering him coming to live with them as another way of only them funding him.

You're saying cms is nothing like 50% but it's impossible to say that. I can say we've paid well over 50% for dss because him mum spends f all on him. When he lived with us we got nowhere near 50%.

Considering the 18 year old does not even live with mum I think the "cms isn't enough" argument is not irrelevant here. Enough for what? Looking after a working adult who does not live with you?

Its ridiculous he's paying for adults when you're struggling for money........it needs to stop.

If he really wants to pay something could he fund driving lessons ? Being able to drive can be the gateway to work, even a pizza delivery job at weekends is better than him sitting on his arse full time.

Does ds suffer with any mental illnesses? Because that can make it agonisingly hard to stay in college, esp. if they aren't diagnosed yet and there is no support. I think that paying for sustenance for your child to live is not as scandalous as some people are saying. Society says that 18 years of age makes someone an adult... which is not scientific! Adolescence ends at 25 and a great deal could be happening in the life of ds. College doesn't work for everyone.

My dad this when I went to university but very kindly kept giving me the money (it was around £40 a week) to help me through Uni.

DecemberSun What I mean is, that when people dismiss any point made in favour of the x wife as "oh its the bitter ex wives club" it attempts to undermine any valid point they may have by saying they are ONLY making the point because they are bitter and there is not one iota of truth to the argument. I'm not likening ex wives to Hitler, I'm likening the style of argument to those who invoke Hitler or the Nazis to shut down any discussion about greater police powers or whatever.
As regards the problem, I can only say again that CMS should not be seen as "free money" to an undeserving RP. In the vast majority of cases the RP HAS shouldered the much bigger burden of both money and care with CMS rates not coming close to 50% and certainly not compensating for the day to day care and juggling that an RP has done. This "child" is now 21 and sounds like he needs a kick unless there are genuine issues but the way forward is a joint conversation, not a unilateral decision to cut off support in the full knowledge that RP will be the one to pick up the slack. You say he has gone down to his girlfriends - I'm assuming the mum hasn't immediately packed up his stuff and rented out his room?

They're not children....

What day is it that they stop being children and become adults? And how is that relevant when the resident parent is yet again left to pay for those not-children?

Don't see the issue here at all.

OP's DH pays maintenance for longer than normal for two children with no SEN.
Now the kids are old enough to ask for help directly if needed and one isn't even living at home.
Of course he needs to give notice that he'll stop. He has done his bit. He can still be approached as a dad for help between adults but it's not automatic.

Difficult. Don't think you will like my reply, and I can only give you an idea of what our HC Judge felt was reasonable: when they are dependent children at university (18-21 was assumed) I will get 2/3 of maintenance until the end of first degree, for however long their subject was being read (3yr, 4yr or 6 yr for medicine etc..

After that, he commented that should a higher degree be undertaken, by then, he hoped we would be able to discuss it and make any arrangement between ourselves. He gave an indication that it should continue until education is complete. He also included a wonderful clause that means if my ex stops complying with the order i.e. paying maintenance or school fees, or seeks to vary it, then we are able to return to court but he has to pay BOTH sets of costs. This has kept him in check for over a decade. Marvellous! Your DH clearly has more honour and integrity and a clear sense of responsibility to his children than my ex, that doesn't arise from being ordered to do something.

Children return from university, and usually stay with their parent, ergo, a room, food and utilities (possibly mortgage) need to keep being supported. That is why to pay something to support DSD isn't unreasonable.

As for DSS who chooses not to work, then he should be supported by the State - if indeed the State has provision in place to support such slothish behaviour. He should be contributing to society, not scrounging from the state or your husband.

I have known what the agreement and provision would be since my children were 2.5 and 6yrs old. Eldest now 16. A lead-in to any change would be thoughtful and will probably be better received.

Hope all goes well.

PS We had to go to the Principal Registry in the HC of London because my ex refused to enter into mediation of any kind. After 14 months and a penal notice attachment to compel my ex to produce bank stats etc., we failed to get any agreement privately. The CSA are not involved as a Judgement is in place. Well done on having things settled out of court. Hats off!

@bobbojobbo

They're not children....

What day is it that they stop being children and become adults? And how is that relevant when the resident parent is yet again left to pay for those not-children?

When they finish education at 18?!

My parents aren't divorced but I've been financially independent since 18 and went to uni paid for by myself by student loans and working.
I could not imagine at 21 asking my parents to pay for my life!
The whole concept that young adults are entirely subsidised by their parents is bonkers to me (unless there is SENS/medical reasons). Teach them how to budget, how to cook and the value of savings/money!

Yanbu!
DH needs to stop paying for DSS (with reasonable notice) as he is an adult and not studying.
I dont think its unreasonable to stop paying ex DW maintenance for DSD either. Has she fully moved out of home, rather that just being in 'digs' during term times? I would be giving financial assistance directly to DSD whilst she is studying.
I would also be having a stern chat with DSS and telling him to pull his socks up. Perhaps DH could incentivise the option of studying with the promise of some financial assistance? The situation with the DSD has now gone beyond maintenance to helping an adult DC financially, which IMHO is optional

@bobbojobbo

They're not children....

What day is it that they stop being children and become adults? And how is that relevant when the resident parent is yet again left to pay for those not-children?

legally they're not children when they turn 18, but 21 is definitely not a child.

You're ignoring the fact the 18 year old doesnt live there and the resident parent is not left paying for her at all.

If the 21 year old got off his arse and got a job the RP wouldnt be paying for him either, it's not dads fault he wont work is it?

@Wonderwall80

Difficult. Don't think you will like my reply, and I can only give you an idea of what our HC Judge felt was reasonable: when they are dependent children at university (18-21 was assumed) I will get 2/3 of maintenance until the end of first degree, for however long their subject was being read (3yr, 4yr or 6 yr for medicine etc..

After that, he commented that should a higher degree be undertaken, by then, he hoped we would be able to discuss it and make any arrangement between ourselves. He gave an indication that it should continue until education is complete. He also included a wonderful clause that means if my ex stops complying with the order i.e. paying maintenance or school fees, or seeks to vary it, then we are able to return to court but he has to pay BOTH sets of costs. This has kept him in check for over a decade. Marvellous! Your DH clearly has more honour and integrity and a clear sense of responsibility to his children than my ex, that doesn't arise from being ordered to do something.

Children return from university, and usually stay with their parent, ergo, a room, food and utilities (possibly mortgage) need to keep being supported. That is why to pay something to support DSD isn't unreasonable.

As for DSS who chooses not to work, then he should be supported by the State - if indeed the State has provision in place to support such slothish behaviour. He should be contributing to society, not scrounging from the state or your husband.

I have known what the agreement and provision would be since my children were 2.5 and 6yrs old. Eldest now 16. A lead-in to any change would be thoughtful and will probably be better received.

Hope all goes well.

PS We had to go to the Principal Registry in the HC of London because my ex refused to enter into mediation of any kind. After 14 months and a penal notice attachment to compel my ex to produce bank stats etc., we failed to get any agreement privately. The CSA are not involved as a Judgement is in place. Well done on having things settled out of court. Hats off!

did you miss the fact that the DSD lives with her boyfriend and his mother? she isnt returning home because it is not her home anymore.

I’d pay same as child benefit - end of the summer after they turn 18, then I’d help the child out directly. The mum must know he’s going to stop when youngest is 18, perfectly reasonable

did you miss the fact that the DSD lives with her boyfriend and his mother? she isnt returning home because it is not her home anymore

Of course it is still her home. She's 18 and at university. OP said her DM is paying money to the boyfriend's mother for her keep. Her mother is still supporting her financially. It's no different from a student being a lodger or living in halls or a flat share except she has less security of tenure. What happens if they break up? She could be homeless with no notice.

I doubt she has "moved out" either. I would guess, like most students, she still has a bedroom and most of her possessions at home.

Her DF should either continue paying the same amount of CM (directly or to her DM) or pay 50% of the parental top up to her loan, not give her money "as and when she needs it". He can't expect her DM to cover all the top up costs.

It's also not a great life lesson or helpful for budgeting to hand out money only when it's needed.

I’d pay same as child benefit ??????!!!!!!!!!

You think NRPs should only pay the equivalent of child benefit in child maintenance @Darbs76?

@orangenasturtium

did you miss the fact that the DSD lives with her boyfriend and his mother? she isnt returning home because it is not her home anymore

Of course it is still her home. She's 18 and at university. OP said her DM is paying money to the boyfriend's mother for her keep. Her mother is still supporting her financially. It's no different from a student being a lodger or living in halls or a flat share except she has less security of tenure. What happens if they break up? She could be homeless with no notice.

I doubt she has "moved out" either. I would guess, like most students, she still has a bedroom and most of her possessions at home.

Her DF should either continue paying the same amount of CM (directly or to her DM) or pay 50% of the parental top up to her loan, not give her money "as and when she needs it". He can't expect her DM to cover all the top up costs.

It's also not a great life lesson or helpful for budgeting to hand out money only when it's needed.

She doesn't live there!

No, OP said her DM is giving SOME OF THE MAINTENANCE which dad pays, to the BFs Mum. Mum is not contributing, she is simply sending dads contribution on.

Why do you doubt that? she isn't living in student accommodation, she is living with her boyfriend, why would she be coming back for the holidays?

At present her DM is covering nothing, is she?

Are you being willfully ignorant, or did you just not read any of the OPs posts?

I love the double standards here.

Adult children in two parent families get to do a gap year, do to uni, come home in the holidays, move in with a Bf/ GF, split up, come home, get a job, move into a flat, move jobs , come home etc etc for most if not all of their 20s.

Adult children of single mothers are supposed to move out on their 18th birthday and be entirely self supporting. If they are not doing so, it’s because their mother is a lazy cow who is a shit parent.

Unlike all these absent dads who bugged off years ago and act like they are heroes if they bung their kids £50.

I am sick and tired of men who don’t bring up / support their kids and their new partners / girl friends who are apologists for them. Just remember - you are condoning how he treats his older kids - this is how he will treat YOUR kids when he moves on.

So I hope all these women have well paid FT jobs that will support them and their children. Because they will need them.

@HugeAckmansWife no one said anything about an entire club of bitter ex wives.

Two, possibly three by my count. Is that a club?

My parents split up when I was a teenager.

My DSIS started work at 18 and so my dad stopped paying maintenance for her then and she paid board.

I went to uni and so my dad paid me "maintenance" (it covered my food shopping, it wasn't a huge amount) and I paid that to my mum when I was home for the holidays.

I do think that if your child is unemployed and staying with the other parent you should help them out a bit, the same as you would if they lived with you. I assume your DSS receives benefits? If that's the case he should be handing some over to his mum for his board and perhaps your DH could also contribute? Could the three of them sit down together to work out the amounts so that everyone is happy?

It's funny that you would be ok with shelling out for his keep if he lived with you but not contributing towards him staying with his mother.

Are you being willfully ignorant, or did you just not read any of the OPs posts?

Did you not read my post? I didn't say anything about holidays. Although based on my experience, I don't know of any students who don't at least come home for a few weeks just to visit their parents, even the ones who live with their partners.

At 18, there is a pretty good chance she will not still be in a relationship with her boyfriend by the time she graduates.

The OP says nothing about how much money the DM gives her DD, only that she gives some money to the BF's DM for board. The DD still needs to buy clothes, pay for travel, buy lunches and snacks, books, equipment, pay for a phone, have a social life, maybe pay for field trips.

Why shouldn't her DF pay 50% of the loan top up/actual costs, as I suggested? If it is less than the CM he is paying, then good for him. Although the loan and parental contribution are only supposed to cover the academic year. Given that there are very few holiday type jobs at the moment, their DD might need financial support in the summer. The government expects parents to financially support their children through university, why shouldn't he share those basic living costs?

I am guessing that you are going to riposte that the DD has reduced costs at the moment because of lockdown and because she is living with her BF's family. It might be fair to agree a temporary reduction to take into account she has no travel costs. Personally, when it comes to saving money by living with her BF, my belief is that parents should still pay the full means tested top up amount (unless they really can't afford to). If my DC choose to live frugally, they should be the ones to benefit by reducing their loan debt as they are the ones making the sacrifice.

oh captain the 'club' gets referred to frequently on here as though all ex wives are the same and all out to fleece the paragon of a man who dared to ditch them and start a new relationship and / or family. The fact that billions in cms goes unpaid, cms rates are largely a joke and in most but obviously not all cases it is the mother who is doing all but eow care and juggling work etc while the father pretty much cracks on with a child free life is an inconvenient truth that 2nd wives like to avoid or gaslight the ex wives into silence by calling them bitter.

@C0NNIE

I love the double standards here.

Adult children in two parent families get to do a gap year, do to uni, come home in the holidays, move in with a Bf/ GF, split up, come home, get a job, move into a flat, move jobs , come home etc etc for most if not all of their 20s.

Adult children of single mothers are supposed to move out on their 18th birthday and be entirely self supporting. If they are not doing so, it’s because their mother is a lazy cow who is a shit parent.

Unlike all these absent dads who bugged off years ago and act like they are heroes if they bung their kids £50.

I am sick and tired of men who don’t bring up / support their kids and their new partners / girl friends who are apologists for them. Just remember - you are condoning how he treats his older kids - this is how he will treat YOUR kids when he moves on.

So I hope all these women have well paid FT jobs that will support them and their children. Because they will need them.

sorry, but my if my biological child was sat on his arse at 21 he'd be getting told to get a job and start contributing, so would DSS. DS would be unlucky in that respect because he wouldnt have another parents house to dissapear off to.

Nobody is apologising for men not paying for their kids - this is not what is happening here, and its ridiculous to even pretend its comparable.

@orangenasturtium

Are you being willfully ignorant, or did you just not read any of the OPs posts?

Did you not read my post? I didn't say anything about holidays. Although based on my experience, I don't know of any students who don't at least come home for a few weeks just to visit their parents, even the ones who live with their partners.

At 18, there is a pretty good chance she will not still be in a relationship with her boyfriend by the time she graduates.

The OP says nothing about how much money the DM gives her DD, only that she gives some money to the BF's DM for board. The DD still needs to buy clothes, pay for travel, buy lunches and snacks, books, equipment, pay for a phone, have a social life, maybe pay for field trips.

Why shouldn't her DF pay 50% of the loan top up/actual costs, as I suggested? If it is less than the CM he is paying, then good for him. Although the loan and parental contribution are only supposed to cover the academic year. Given that there are very few holiday type jobs at the moment, their DD might need financial support in the summer. The government expects parents to financially support their children through university, why shouldn't he share those basic living costs?

I am guessing that you are going to riposte that the DD has reduced costs at the moment because of lockdown and because she is living with her BF's family. It might be fair to agree a temporary reduction to take into account she has no travel costs. Personally, when it comes to saving money by living with her BF, my belief is that parents should still pay the full means tested top up amount (unless they really can't afford to). If my DC choose to live frugally, they should be the ones to benefit by reducing their loan debt as they are the ones making the sacrifice.

lots of ifs and maybes there. Considering mum is not contributing, her contibution can be looking after her daughter on the breif times she returns home cant it? or does mum not need to contribute?

why shouldnt dad pay 50%? does she even need it? she works?

mum doesnt pay 50% does she? why shouldnt she pay those living costs too?

she doesnt live with mum - why is money going to mum?