So where does it go wrong for women?

[Falalalafishfingers]

I'm sure this has been asked a 1009 times!
Read so many times in threads that it makes more sense for woman to give up work/ cut hours as dh/dp earns so much more. This suggests that men are already earning more pre-children?
So where does it go wrong? My guess is university.

Women not looking into some of the 'non - traditional industries' - why they do this I am not sure

Because we're taught from a very young age what are acceptable 'girl' jobs and 'boy' jobs and this is then reinforced or challenged as we grow up though the media, books, tv and personal experiences.

Women who might control an entire department at work are getting home in the evening and worrying about whether they've hoovered properly or ordered the right light-fittings or put the dinner on before he gets back from work

I dont think they are worrying about it just questioning why every last damn chore is left for them and them alone.

Women outearn men now pre-children. You ask why there are still plenty of women giving up work on account of them being the lower earner, perhaps differences in age could be the reason.

In nearly half of relationships in the US, the husband is more than a year older than the wife (a third of relationships are within a year, in only around 15% is the wife the elder). So in a substantial number of relationships the husband has a head start along the same curve.

By way of example, a 30 year old man and a 27 year old woman are married. She might be earning the same as he did at 27 but it will look like she is performing worse on paper because he is three years older. Therefore her giving up her career may seem the sensible option at the time. Obviously her potential is now completely knackered as she will have to start from scratch once the kids have grown up whereas if they had both made some effort to share the workload they would be better off in the long run.

I was in the situation where I was by far the higher earner but my live in partner refused to acknowledge that they ought to do their share, I always pushed back but the resultant stress and tension hurt me more than him because he was just more thick skinned
I know live alone and life is a breeze
for me the problem is the inherent impossibility of trying to form a partnership with someone who believes that they, by rights, should be the boss and this describes a large proportion of men

Yohoheaveho

I could have written this: I out-earned my ex by a factor of 3 to 1 but it was still by default my job to do all childcare drop-offs and pickups and 90% of housework and he went for a drink after work three nights a week without telling me. There was no discussion or negotiation about this it was just the way things were as far as things were concerned.

"for me the problem is the inherent impossibility of trying to form a partnership with someone who believes that they, by rights, should be the boss and this describes a large proportion of men"

I would argue it is the overwhelming majority of men. It's increasingly irrelevant who is the higher earner. It's just something most of them assume as a birthright and its going to take a long time and a big fight to turn this around.

One thing I have noticed (In my wider social circle not ust direct friends) is that a lot of women seem to get sucked into not-great relationships in their early twenties. These seem to really set up what then follows, even if these relationships dont last. So a woman in a relationship with someone who is unambitious/a bit of a loser/controlling/doesnt want to travel/unsupportive. This affects the life they have. Even of they break up, they then marry their next partner who may be fantastic and reliable, but at this point their career is less developed so it makes sense for them to be the one to stay home with the kids when they have them.

OR woman dates man with less ambitions/less income (nothing wrong with that). Woman and man have children. Man continues to prioritise gaming etc over work AND over the children. Woman ends up carrying the load for both. OR she supports/pushes/fixes the man to improve and he ends up in a higher earning career than her. It is not as simple as "date lower earning men"

That sounds like Im blaming men for all women's problems. I am not. But it is definately a dynamic I have seen. And if I had a daughter in her twenties I would warn her NOT to sacrifice her career/plans at that stage for a relationship.

I didn’t willingly give up my career. I had severe HG until term in pregnancy and I ended up losing my job as I had so much time off and hospitalised.

We decided to have another baby soon after the first as it was pointless starting a new job if HG was to happen again. Which it did.

And then bam! A 3.5 year CV gap, which has been very difficult to overcome (although I have now, thankfully).

I never planned to stop working, at all. But being female, using my reproductive system and being particularly unlucky health-wise with pregnancy, took the choice out of my hands. I was very angry and bitter about it for quite a long time, until I had some therapy to help me come to accept it.

@Yohoheaveho
@thepeopleversuswork

YES!!! It seems to be a myth that if you date a man with a lower income they will be as likely to become the main childcare provider as a woman would if she was the lower earner. In reality, if a man is not as interested in his career as in (eg his social life, gaming etc) chances are he wont replace his previous interests with children. Gaming, drinks with the lads etc will remain the number one priorty. And the woman gets told "well you knew what he was like". Whereas the same dynamic doesnt exist to the same extent when a woman is unambitous or has interests she puts before work. Probably because it is less socially acceptable for men to be unambitious so the ones that are are more likely to be generally lazy.

I out earned him by about 10 times at one point, it turned him into a caveman, like his masculinity just couldn't handle it
He did everything he could to Sabotage my career whilst at the same time trying to benefit as much as he could from the money that I was earning
It was all very interesting 👀 you can learn such a lot from studying what goes on

@Yohoheaveho So did my ex when he was unemployed (but doing a Phd) and I was working (and the only income) while also looking after our one year old (because he couldnt because he was doing a PhD and I needed to support that). Then when he got a job went out of his way to punish me. And told everyone the reason he hadnt been working was because I had made him sacrifice himself for my career. I am so so angry with myself for that whole relationship.

[quote Falalalafishfingers]@Phineyj really? So why do so many women give up their careers?[/quote]
From my POV, I wouldn't give up my career BUT I would want to be the one to take the maternity leave and spend that first year with my child.

I feel like my whole life I have expected and looked forward to that when I have a baby, so I wouldn't want to give that up, even if it meant I would lose a year of my career.

As a whole, I wonder if expectation is a lot to do with it? I think most women expect to be taking charge of the children's daily routing when they come along, whereas I don't think most men do.

namitynamechange

This is a really interesting point: to be honest I think you're damned either way. If you have children with a man with a significantly higher income its going to be assumed by default that your career will have to take a back seat and there will be some logic to this because "he needs to focus on his career" so its harder to push back.

If you have children with a man with a lower income unless he's prepared to be a fully fledged stay at home parent you will still probably end up doing the lion's share of the domestic work anyway but without the compensation of having someone else bring more money in, so you're doing a double shift. I have seen this dynamic play out so often. Men just fall into the role of being the "breadwinner" even if they're not.

Even if you are in the unusual situation of having a man who is prepared to become the full-time carer its not ideal because the entire burden of earning is on you and in the event that you did split it is likely he would become the non-resident parent.

Which is why on balance I'm now happy that I'm a single parent: I don't have to worry about the entitlement of a man, regardless of whether he's richer or poorer than me, and the inevitability of my ending up basically doing everything for him. And while I do end doing everything, at least I'm not doing everything because another adult is failing to pull his weight either economically or domestically.

Which is why on balance I'm now happy that I'm a single parent: I don't have to worry about the entitlement of a man, regardless of whether he's richer or poorer than me, and the inevitability of my ending up basically doing everything for him. And while I do end doing everything, at least I'm not doing everything because another adult is failing to pull his weight either economically or domestically.

I think an awful lot of women feel like this if you go on the relationships board.
Its like having an extra child
Im "lucky" my DH pulls his weight but so many dont.

@Bibidy

Well, the vast majority of women will do the first few months of childcare and many will take a year off. In some industries taking a year is fatal, but in most it is the dropping out after that that really makes a difference, certainly is in mine.

Do you have kids? Just interested! I found that I was fiercely protective of my DD when born, but that didn't stop me being very happy for DH to take his shift and by the time I got to 9 months I was ready to have some time away and I would happily have gone back to work - my DH was not so keen to take the leave then, so he didn't and I did the last few months to a year.

This time, he will take more time off at the end so I can go back when I am ready (which I expect will be similar) and he can get some bonding time in. He regrets being a workaholic in DD's first year and wants some time bonding with this baby and having the chance to fly solo. IME, unless women give their husbands a chance to fly solo, they don't get the confidence or see it as their job either, because you are always managing them - if you do this to your DH constantly and are always "supervising" as the "expert", then you shouldn't complain that he doesn't find it enjoyable or know what to do.

@Bibidy

“ I feel like my whole life I have expected and looked forward to that when I have a baby, so I wouldn't want to give that up, even if it meant I would lose a year of my career.”

Really not having a pop/hope this doesn’t sound like a criticism, but that is the crux of the matter having ‘expectations’ for motherhood to work out a certain way, which you’ve picked up from societal attitudes.

It’s weird isn’t it. I think that in fields where men dominate, like STEM, men dominate. And also in fields where women are in the majority.... men still dominate?!
I work in education. There are about 150 staff in my extended team. Of these, there are 10 men, and they are all in very senior positions. Everybody gets super excited when a new man joins, and they just fly up the ranks. It just ...... happens!

Dodithedog

This. I work in an industry which is skewed towards women at lower levels but shockingly bifurcated: basically the men all get promoted and make partner and most of the women peel off and have babies before going part time.