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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

So where does it go wrong for women?

692 replies

Falalalafishfingers · 15/01/2021 18:53

I'm sure this has been asked a 1009 times!
Read so many times in threads that it makes more sense for woman to give up work/ cut hours as dh/dp earns so much more. This suggests that men are already earning more pre-children?
So where does it go wrong? My guess is university.

OP posts:
lightand · 17/01/2021 14:00

That is just two examples.
There are women farmers and women fisherpeople to to a certain extent.
But any number of jobs done almost exclusively by men. I dont think I need to write a huge great list, or do I?

Go to any industrial estate.

Road maintenance - for the first time ever[I dont travel that widely] I saw a female road maintenance person.

Eileithyiaa · 17/01/2021 14:14

I moved into a high paying career straight from maternity leave. If anything the need to be independent for mine and DDs sake if all went tits up was the driving decision maker.

Since 2017 I have pushed for 2 promotions and got them. My salary has increased over double, and I'm currently waiting on an offer by my company to retain me after telling them I had another job.

My industry is male dominated however pay gap reports show in our company women out earn the men. Our global CEO is a woman and a hard feminist and constantly does webinars and speeches telling the women of the company to take risks, advertise our skills and identify when we have something valuable that we can use to leverage. She's a true power house and respected by the entire global workforce.

After maternity, I did a 3 day week but after 12 months when I knew DD was settled with CM I bumped up to FT.

I out earn DP by x 3.

The advice I will give DD as she grows up:

Be bold. Fortune favours the bold and don't be scared of shouting your capability from the rooftops. You want more money? Tell them. Don't ask you don't get.

If someone says you can't do something - prove them wrong.

Skill skill and skill. The more strings you add to your bow the better.

Climb the ladder, see it as a challenge! (A fun one at that). When you've reached the top, don't be scared of finding a new ladder.

SueEllenMishke · 17/01/2021 14:14

@lightand

A lot of men can do "women jobs". How many women choose to mend cars, go down sewers, mine etc. And for all their working lives?
And why do you think this is??
Thelnebriati · 17/01/2021 14:21

@lightand

That is just two examples. There are women farmers and women fisherpeople to to a certain extent. But any number of jobs done almost exclusively by men. I dont think I need to write a huge great list, or do I?

Go to any industrial estate.

Road maintenance - for the first time ever[I dont travel that widely] I saw a female road maintenance person.

You're complaining because I told you how to find women builders or whatever but only gave 2 examples?

If you can only see men in a workplace why do you assume women aren't applying for the job?

EBearhug · 17/01/2021 14:41

A lot of men can do "women jobs".
^How many women choose to
mend cars, go down sewers, mine etc.^
And for all their working lives?

Women were prevented from working down miles from 1842 to 1985, by which time there were far fewer mines, and just after the Miners' Strike.

Women have always worked, because some women had to, to avoid starvation. Things like marriage bars mostly affected the professions, but it created the expectation that women would give up work on marriage, even where there wasn't a formal marriage bar in place. This changed over time to expectations that women will give up work when they have their first child. There's still an expectation that most women will want to do that, or at least go part-time, but there isn't any such expectation that men will want to do that when they become fathers.

For most parents, it's an economic decision- women often do earn less than their husbands, because of being younger and less advanced in their careers, because of the gender pay gap and roles dominated by women being less valued, and because of equal pay, because it's still far too often the case that women do not get equal pay for equal work with their male peers despite it being half a century since that was law. Women get paid for maternity leave, more than men get for paternity leave, and for many couples, there's not really a choice. Even Sweden has financial incentives - Swedish colleague said they would get less money if he didn't take his paternity leave, even if his wife took more time. (I don't know how it works for single parents - what happens if you're widowed after becoming pregnant?)

So it seems to me that equally paid parental leave would make it a freer decision for most parents, if they won't lose out financially whichever parent takes leave to be the SAHP. This would mean that over time, more men would take more time out of careers, so it would become more socially acceptable and it would be harder to discriminate against women of childbearing age if you're just as likely to lose men to parenting for several months. Women would of course still have to take some time, but it's the long term absences employers seem not to like.

There is evidence that men are recruited and promoted for their potential, whereas women are more likely to need to prove experience - potential isn't enough. In STEM careers, women are very often more highly qualified than their male peers, for the same reason. And if women don't apply to jobs until they can show they match at least 80% of the requirements it's probably not just imposter syndrome, it's also because they will be judged more harshly and will need to show they match those requirements - recruiters are less likely to take a punt on them as they might with a less experienced/qualified man. If a woman stands up for herself in the workplace or asks for a parish, she is more likely to be seen as aggressive ot for it to be argued that she doesn't deserve it.

And it's bloody tiring having to fight that bit harder than you see your male colleagues doing, just to keep up. This is partly why the leaky pipeline happens - often it's something like maternity leave or redundancy forcing a woman's hand, a change in circumstances that means you have to review your career, and you end up thinking, fuck this, I'm taking time out, I'm changing my career to something where I'll be appreciated more, may not be paid more, but the hours are better, I can do fulfilling things outside of work, because I'm not going to get it in work.

I am childless, I am the only woman in my department, I have never been promoted, I have had to fight hard for payrises just to be equal, I am far more formally qualified than my peers. Many of the men work part time, but this might be to spend more time on their hobbies. They will use work as an excuse not to go to things like school nativities or sports days, as if no mother ever finds it as tedious as they do, but work is generally sufficiently flexible that they could go, but it's easier to lie about work than be honest that they don't always want to be a parent. They are heroes when they work from home with a sick child... but mostly, they still have more choice about when to be an active parent than the mothers of their children do.

ThornAmongstRoses · 17/01/2021 14:52

This would mean that over time, more men would take more time out of careers, so it would become more socially acceptable and it would be harder to discriminate against women of childbearing age if you're just as likely to lose men to parenting for several months. Women would of course still have to take some time, but it's the long term absences employers seem not to like.

I imagine though even if fathers were allowed to share leave more, that women would still want to spend a long time off with their baby. Woman who want to do this won’t relinquish that just because it’s socially acceptable to share it with the father.

There will always be cases of women who hated maternity leave, couldn’t wait to get back to work and would happily have shared leave with their partner, but I still think that’s the minority.

lightand · 17/01/2021 14:53

If you can only see men in a workplace why do you assume women aren't applying for the job?

I dont see any threads on mumsnet ever, complaining that they cant get to do what is normally considered "a man's job".
When was the last time you saw one.

I agree though that women are still paid less than males for the same job, so there is obviously something going wrong there.

EBearhug · 17/01/2021 15:11

I imagine though even if fathers were allowed to share leave more, that women would still want to spend a long time off with their baby. Woman who want to do this won’t relinquish that just because it’s socially acceptable to share it with the father.

This is true, but I think there would still be more men taking more leave than they do now. Until it's the case that there is equal pay for paternity leave, we don't know, because people aren't really free to make the decision.

HeadNorth · 17/01/2021 15:14

Actually the poster who provided the link asserted exactly that.

@VinylDetective That is unfair. We are looking at why women fare worse than men, yes other groups suffer from structural inequality but that is not the focus on this thread. In any case, where BAME people have poor outcomes, female BAME will as a group have worse outcomes than male BAME. Same for any other group -women will fare worst within that group, as a group. Women in old age are at greater risk of poverty than men - let's not attempt to gloss over that with whataboutery.

And I am sorry, I still cannot accept that women 'of your generation' outstrip men in their late 40s and 50s as there is a dearth of female representation at the highest levels across the board. Anecdote is not data.

My central point is those child rearing years are important, but they are just a part of a larger life and shouldn't define longer term outcomes into retirement. Men and women should be able to take time out and create a work life balance whilst still progressing in their careers. The fact they can't at the moment disproportionately impacts women. If men stepped up to family life it would be the start of redressing the balance.

SueEllenMishke · 17/01/2021 15:15

@lightand

If you can only see men in a workplace why do you assume women aren't applying for the job?

I dont see any threads on mumsnet ever, complaining that they cant get to do what is normally considered "a man's job".
When was the last time you saw one.

I agree though that women are still paid less than males for the same job, so there is obviously something going wrong there.

Don't underestimate the role of societal stereotypes and expectations. They start when children are very young- they are taught what are appropriate 'girl' and 'boy' jobs and this still features heavily when people are making career related decisions.
Circumlocutious · 17/01/2021 15:16

It's not necessarily about sharing leave, but about stepping in to the do the other commitments: the sick days, assemblies, drop offs and pick ups, etc. Conventional wisdom would dictate that the longer you've been at an organisation, the more esteemed you are, the more flexibility you're afforded - so why does this not seem to apply to so many men? They could step up to most of those other commitments, while their partner works her way back up the ladder, perhaps in a more inflexible role.

But years later, it's still the woman running around, and applying for jobs within school hours (which immediately restricts her prospects) because her DP can't possibly do the school run...

wixked · 17/01/2021 15:21

More flexible working and childcare solutions would encourage a lot of women to work. I stopped working after my first and tried to go back but it was disastrous with both of us working and DS hated childcare. I didn't have him for him to be raised by minimum wage workers. In the end it was so stressful on everyone I just stayed home and I don't regret it but it would have been nice to keep one foot in somehow.

Conkergame · 18/01/2021 16:54

I think there’s lots of factors, which makes it all the more difficult to overcome!

I’m a highly educated woman (private school, top university, masters) and my friends are all similar. In our group, there’s a definite large minority of couples where the woman is desperate for kids and the husband just isn’t that fussed. Happy to go along with it but makes it clear he won’t be doing the majority of the care. I couldn’t be attracted to a man like that personally, but these women love their husbands and really want children, so they accept the hit it will take to their (thriving) career as the price to pay for having a family. They all say they want to pick their careers up later when their kids are at school (we’re all still at the baby/toddler stage) but we’ll see how that goes. So I guess biology plays a role there in generally making women want kids more than men?

Then there’s the societal pressure. A couple of other situations I’ve seen is where the dad agrees before the birth that he’s going to be very hands on, take leave, go part time if needed etc...then when the baby arrives and the reality hits of how hard they can be to look after full time, those same men just opt-out of daily care - they say they can’t cope with it and refuse to take the leave etc. At that point the mother has no choice but to step in, so someone is looking after the child. In my opinion society’s view that care is a “woman’s role” allows these men to get away with this behaviour, whereas a woman would be torn apart if she tried the same approach. Again the women love their husbands so don’t want to break up with them over it and they rationalise it to themselves and others because the husband earns more; due to structural discrimination issues. The husbands don’t earn a lot more before the first child but they will do by the second child as the woman has now taken time out / gone part time for a couple of years.

snappyoldfartpants · 18/01/2021 17:06

@33goingon64 I se this as well with friends excusing daughters saying "oh she's so bossy" I alway say let her be confident, you'd never call a boy bossy.

VinylDetective · 18/01/2021 17:11

And I am sorry, I still cannot accept that women 'of your generation' outstrip men in their late 40s and 50s as there is a dearth of female representation at the highest levels across the board. Anecdote is not data.

You might want to reread my posts because the word “outstrip” has never been mentioned. What I actually said is:

That’s why we see women in their late 40s/50s really surging forward, their male counterparts seem to be burnt out/complacent at that stage.

I spent most of my career in the public sector where there are numerous women with adult children in very senior positions.

HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffee · 18/01/2021 20:01

Great post @snappyoldfartpants, I agree the way behavioural traits are described in women is often unflattering
Female,Strident man decisive
Female Bossy man confident

HeadNorth · 18/01/2021 20:20

@VinylDetective

And I am sorry, I still cannot accept that women 'of your generation' outstrip men in their late 40s and 50s as there is a dearth of female representation at the highest levels across the board. Anecdote is not data.

You might want to reread my posts because the word “outstrip” has never been mentioned. What I actually said is:

That’s why we see women in their late 40s/50s really surging forward, their male counterparts seem to be burnt out/complacent at that stage.

I spent most of my career in the public sector where there are numerous women with adult children in very senior positions.

That is wonderful if women in the public sector surge forward to very senior positions in their late 40s and 50s. Hopefully we should start to see better work practices for families and a closing of the gender pay gap at the top level. It is about time.

Sadly in my sector, women who have not been promoted by their late 40s or early 50s are very much sidelined - it is the consequence of the years out of the workplace when their children were young, they never seem able to claw that back.

VinylDetective · 18/01/2021 20:53

Hopefully we should start to see better work practices for families and a closing of the gender pay gap at the top level. It is about time

You’d think so, wouldn’t you? I can’t see it happening though, especially with the scale of unemployment we’re about to see. It’s 46 years since the Equal Pay Act hit the statute books and it’s yet to become a reality.

And senior women generally aren’t very good at supporting more junior women in the workplace, they don’t see why others shouldn’t have to deal the same shit they did.

Watermelon999 · 18/01/2021 21:10

@Falalalafishfingers

I'm sure this has been asked a 1009 times! Read so many times in threads that it makes more sense for woman to give up work/ cut hours as dh/dp earns so much more. This suggests that men are already earning more pre-children? So where does it go wrong? My guess is university.
Had this discussion earlier with my older dd’s. Basing my evidence on their younger brother’s zoom lessons, where the boys tend to mess about more, concentrate less and make silly noises, while the girls generally get on with it and are more sensible and mature. How do the boys/men end up in more positions of power in the long run?!!

I feel in my case, it was dropping down to part time in my professional career, which was entirely my choice, and taking on the majority of the childcare. I wouldn’t change it for the world, but you do tend to get overlooked for promotions compared to those who are full time.

LadyfromtheBelleEpoque · 18/01/2021 21:55

I think we underestimate the wall of maleness we encounter in work. It’s seems invisible but it is resolute and instead of focusing on glass ceilings for women we should investigate the glass elevator men only have to step foot on. It miraculously hides all the bad behaviour and only reflects the good, magnifying it so that it looks ten times better than it actually is.

Smoke and mirrors, girls. Whilst we are worrying about running mascara (bane of my life) they ensure they are positioned on our shoulders, ready to manipulate every situation to their advantage. And I think the ‘good’ ones don’t even know it.

HeadNorth · 18/01/2021 22:07

@VinylDetective

Hopefully we should start to see better work practices for families and a closing of the gender pay gap at the top level. It is about time

You’d think so, wouldn’t you? I can’t see it happening though, especially with the scale of unemployment we’re about to see. It’s 46 years since the Equal Pay Act hit the statute books and it’s yet to become a reality.

And senior women generally aren’t very good at supporting more junior women in the workplace, they don’t see why others shouldn’t have to deal the same shit they did.

Depressingly, I think both things you say are true - although I can think of at least 2 inspirational senior women who were great at recognising overlooked female talent. But they stand out as outliers, sadly.
BillMasen · 18/01/2021 22:11

@LadyfromtheBelleEpoque

I think we underestimate the wall of maleness we encounter in work. It’s seems invisible but it is resolute and instead of focusing on glass ceilings for women we should investigate the glass elevator men only have to step foot on. It miraculously hides all the bad behaviour and only reflects the good, magnifying it so that it looks ten times better than it actually is.

Smoke and mirrors, girls. Whilst we are worrying about running mascara (bane of my life) they ensure they are positioned on our shoulders, ready to manipulate every situation to their advantage. And I think the ‘good’ ones don’t even know it.

I’ve certainly never found a magic glass elevator, propelling my career upwards with no effort from me, at the expense of women.

Maybe some “male” bad behaviour is rewarded, but don’t assume having a penis has made my work life a bed of roses please

SueEllenMishke · 18/01/2021 22:35

I’ve certainly never found a magic glass elevator, propelling my career upwards with no effort from me, at the expense of women.

At what point have anyone on this thread suggested that men don't need to make an effort to progress?? You're completely misunderstanding the issues being discussed.

Maybe some “male” bad behaviour is rewarded, but don’t assume having a penis has made my work life a bed of roses please

Again, not one person had suggested your working life is a 'bed of roses'. However, the fact is the vast majority of the working world has been designed by men and therefore works to men's advantage. That's not women blaming men it's just how the world has worked.

BillMasen · 18/01/2021 22:40

I was literally responding to the post that said it had

SueEllenMishke · 18/01/2021 22:48

@BillMasen

I was literally responding to the post that said it had
We obviously interpreted that differently 🤷🏼‍♀️

It was acknowledging that it is often much, much harder for women.
Which is absolutely true.

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