So where does it go wrong for women?

[Falalalafishfingers]

I'm sure this has been asked a 1009 times!
Read so many times in threads that it makes more sense for woman to give up work/ cut hours as dh/dp earns so much more. This suggests that men are already earning more pre-children?
So where does it go wrong? My guess is university.

I read something that the pay discrepancy between men and women often starts in their first jobs. Men are more likely to negotiate (and get) a higher starting salary than a woman in an equivalent job. Therefore all subsequent percentage pay increases widens the gap and the discrepancy continues into subsequent jobs.

You also need to factor in age gaps sometimes.

Dh & I are the same age (and I'm the higher earner so dh has done the bulk of childcare for the last few years), but lots of friend/family couples have a gap of a few years with the female partner generally being younger.

So you could be comparing a 28yr old woman's earnings with a 32yr old man - the younger the woman, the bigger the gap would probably be in terms of earnings.

Tbh it tends to go wrong for individual women when they let their standards slip.

In what way?

Women have babies - and I have heard from those who had to go back full time rather than take the money track; that it was made quite tricky for them. They've found themselves being given a lot of travel, and less leeway than a male colleague. Or redundancy during pregnancy is quite common, or the 'mummy track'.
In other countries where working hours are more reasonable eg. its normal to just work your hours. So both partners can be available to collect children from school etc. I think the pay/career gap is less pronounced.

My gender gap appeared when first child was age 2. Previously I was the higher earner. I felt like I was on an endless guilt trip trying to be the perfect employee and mother and decided my management job was too stressful to enjoy motherhood. So I quit. And re-entered the workplace on half my original wage after five years out because in the meantime, location had changed and my skills (and language) were no longer applicable to the place we lived. It don't like that I earn less, but I'm not unhappy. I do think that women get a raw deal because they feel an immense responsibility toward the happiness of their children, far greater than men.

And yes, "more stressful" really means "full time, very long hours".

Myself and DH earned about the same when I fell pregnant, I haven't gone back to work yet due to childcare but when I do I'll have to take a lower paid role to cut my hours.

@wonderup

Tbh it tends to go wrong for individual women when they let their standards slip.

In what way?

When they don't push to their highest potential, when they settle for a shitty man, when they don't push for a promotion, when they put up with poor treatment, etc etc etc, there are SO many examples of how we let ourselves down by not demanding more of life all over this site.

In ‘Lean In’ (not a book I’m wholly on board with, but that’s a separate discussion) Sheryl Sandberg talks about “Don’t Leave Before You Leave”, which I think is a big thing in my opinion- not taking a job now because you might want to have children in 2/5/whenever years’ time and you think it’s not compatible with having children- without even trying to make it work or even knowing for sure you’ll have kids.
Also maternity leave, in some companies/industries/professions, taking a long mat leave does put you on a back foot. I’m not saying you shouldn’t take a year off, but until Shared Parental Leave is the norm, there won’t be equality- but I’ve also heard many say they don’t want to ‘share’ their mat leave...not to mention pushing for for division of labour at home.

Once you get past the initial stages of your career where in many cases you progress by being there a certain amount of times, it starts to take more striving to move up in seniority- like applying for jobs where you don’t meet the criteria as PP mentioned, self-promotion, etc.

@wonderup

Tbh it tends to go wrong for individual women when they let their standards slip.

In what way?

Read some threads in AIBU and you’ll see the low standards some women have. They pick a feckless drunken loser as a father for their children and then wonder why life is hard and they have no money.

When they don't push to their highest potential, when they settle for a shitty man, when they don't push for a promotion, when they put up with poor treatment, etc etc etc, there are SO many examples of how we let ourselves down by not demanding more of life all over this site.

I see what you mean now. I often see on here that childcare costs are treated as the mothers expense which I don't understand.

My DH earns more than me but he's good at facilitating my career which has allowed me to progress. I started a new career after dc1 was born.

I agree that some women don't go for promotions if they're planning children and sometimes settle in a role that is deemed more likely to be flexible, or doesn't impact on home.

I was earning around 20k more than dh when we met. Since then we have had 3 children over 10 years, 3 x maternity leave etc. Now I earn exactly half his salary. Essentially my salary has grown by only 20% in 10 years while his has grown by 7 times. Having children has a massive impact.

@Marley20 but why will you? Just out of curiosity as we are discussing this in this thread, why does your career need to be the one that changes? Has your partner considered it?

Why couldn't you plough on with advancing your career and pay, whilst your partner takes reduced hours?

I worked in teams where women were simply not interested in progressing higher. Thankfully, there are enough ambitious women to raise the bar, but it was mainly the young child-free WOMEN who finished on the dot, and refused to work evenings and weekends, demanded a lunch break and so on.

I always found it puzzling, there was a clear lack of drive from one gender.

@HelloThereMeHearties

Women on Mumsnet are not a representative sample of women across the UK. The high earners don't tend to post on here. I have high-earning friends, who earn more than their DHs, and no way would they have time to be chatting on Mumsnet.

I don't think that's right at all. There are plenty of high earners on MN (excluding the fantasists).

I've out-earned my husband since we got together 15+ years ago. We are both in the same field (law) but I got some lucky/well-earned (depending on how you look at it) breaks early on in my career that helped my earning ability.

I was undoubtedly helped by only taking one fairly short mat leave. Certainly in law women tend to do well until it comes to promotion to partnership which tends to coincide with pregnancy/mat leave/young children.

@Ohalrightthen that’s exactly it, demand more of you partner, employer and not putting up with shitty treatment. Of course it’s not always that straightforward but it’s a general attitude.

Our original plan was that my husband was going to take a good chunk of parental leave once our son was weaned. But we realised that financially it wouldn't work

My husband was a lawyer and earned about 20 times what I did working as a production editor in publishing. I don't know many people who have or had the same job as their partner. The ones that did tended not to give up work.

Whoops, hit send too early. Anyway, I ended up going back to work full time when our son was 8 months old, as anything less would have been the death of my career. I do get very jealous of my male colleagues with their part time/sah wives, especially at the moment.

Dh was a sahd while I worked FT. He really didn't enjoy it so I went PT and DH went back to work. I can earn more than DH but DH wants to work FT and I'm happy to work PT, dealing more with the kids homework side etc. Its what works for you as a couple.

Mummy track type expectations are a big part of it.

Anecdote: DH is a SAHP, which was public knowledge. I was in work early one day (before 8am). I bumped into my (male) group head in the corridor. His question to me? Who was looking after my kids. I tilted my head and asked after his. I hope he felt suitably awkward.

Starts at birth yessir and it’s a form of brainwashing

Sit and behave
Don’t be bossy or opinionated
Clear your dad’s plate away
Defer to your dad
Don’t complain if your boyfriend won’t leave you alone
Tolerate catcalls because you’re nice
Be pleasant to the creepy boss

Be the employee who won’t apply for the job that’s a stretch

Be the parent who refuses to work FT
Become the one who doesn’t have time for a hobby
Become the boring one

Get divorced

Love the irony of this bit of your post MsConstrue : 'Men are sexist and for many after they have kids, the men (their husbands) expect their wives to be the main carers. Men magically revert to expecting the woman to stay at home, to clean, to cook.'

Fight sexism with sexism! Jesus, could we not come up with a slightly more nuanced answer than a poorly evidenced sweeping statement that labels an entire gender with negative traits.

Anyway onto the OPs question. There's a really good chapter on this in the superfreakonomics book and essentially it comes down to: taking time off for childcare damages earning potential. Some women want to do this, some have no choice.

Meaning: family friendly work where the men can take time to look after children too would go a long way to addressing the balance.

Women on Mumsnet are not a representative sample of women across the UK. The high earners don't tend to post on here. I have high-earning friends, who earn more than their DHs, and no way would they have time to be chatting on Mumsnet.

@HelloThereMeHearties I’m not entirely sure what you deem a ‘high earner’ but I probably fall in that category. I actually post on mnet quite frequently. Bizarrely I find it helps clear my mind from work stuff and destress. I’m not alone either.