So where does it go wrong for women?

[Falalalafishfingers]

I'm sure this has been asked a 1009 times!
Read so many times in threads that it makes more sense for woman to give up work/ cut hours as dh/dp earns so much more. This suggests that men are already earning more pre-children?
So where does it go wrong? My guess is university.

VinylDetective we are both nurses, not doctors. There is scope if you weigh up the pros and cons of paying for childcare and this was over 23 years ago. I think we may be unusual though, as my DH is/was equally committed to being a parent and having a career for both of us. I was able to move into HE, which did help but the overriding emphasis was that we both wanted a family and we both wanted to work.

@harknesswitch

After reading some of the posts on here, such as, women don't like getting grease under their fingernails and families work better when one caregiver stays at home there's no wonder women end up with lower paid or no job at all, it's so ingrained into women that this is 'their lot' that I bet a really high % of women are brain washed into thinking these things. As parents we should be teaching our daughters that they can do anything they want, not just become mothers or jobs that are lower level.

But why would you want to do the cold, dirty, jobs outside if the men already had that short straw?

I used to work for a big waste company. Depot manager was female. Traffic manager female. Over 50% of office staff...female.

Guess how many of the van drivers who did private waste removal were female. Yup, none. Guess how many truck drivers were female? None. Yard workers - none. Refuse loaders (bin men) - none. Waste picking line - none.

It was almost as if women chose the office jobs over the ones where you were working outside in the rain. 🤔

“As parents we should be teaching our daughters that they can do anything they want,”

Agree

“not just become mothers or jobs that are lower level.”

Disagree,

Not sure why being a mother is low level, it’s probably one of the hardest but most rewarding jobs there is. The point is there should be choice.....

I mean, I'd much rather 'have no job at all' if my lifestyle was still the same, because working generally sucks compared to 'pursuing ones hobbies' as many of the housewives from the other linked thread clsim to do.

Women seem to get a mixed bag as do men. Some work and are still expected to do all the housework whilst others live lives of relative leisure funded by 'hubby who works 80 hours a week in a high paid job'. It's disingenuous to pretend these women don't exist.

@GodOfPhwoar

It was almost as if women chose the office jobs over the ones where you were working outside in the rain. 🤔

Do you think women and men approach choosing jobs completely free from societal expectations and unconscious bias?

“Teach your daughters they can be anything they want not just mothers”

This is what I mean about our society seeing mothers who want to put everything into raising their children and running the household as worthless... or not as worthy as mothers who have to/want to go out to work and be less available for their kids than SAHM’s (not a judgement just reality). It’s absolute bollocks.

I don’t respect any woman more than a stay at home mum just because they have chosen to or have to have a career instead of raising their children full time. The scorn for SAHMs is such a shame.

For most women, once they have 2+ kids, it becomes non viable financially to return to work. By the time you've paid for nursery fees, you're often working for nothing. And feeling massively stressed out, having to juggle work and home life, for no financial gain.

It's the woman who has mat leave, taking out up to a year every time. Often makes sense for the man to have the unbroken career and climb the ladder, so he can provide for his family.

This is all well and good when a marriage lasts, and all income is treated as family money. I think it falls on its arse if the guy is a douche about money (claiming he is the earner and therefore the boss) or when a couple divorce and the woman finds herself on a very sticky wicket indeed.

Of course women can "have both". But show me one full time working mother who isn't stressed to the max. Yes, she's still a mother, but she has so much on her plate that it's (often) not enjoyable. And then there's the guilt of missing out on school plays/sports day etc, when other non working Mum's are there.

I have no idea what the answer is though.

Of course women can "have both". But show me one full time working mother who isn't stressed to the max. Yes, she's still a mother, but she has so much on her plate that it's (often) not enjoyable. And then there's the guilt of missing out on school plays/sports day etc, when other non working Mum's are there.

Me...in normal times obviously.
I work full time and have never missed a school play, assembly etc nor has DH.

Do you think women and men approach choosing jobs completely free from societal expectations and unconscious bias?

No, of course not. But once you find yourself in a particular situation you're going to choose the options that appeal the most, hence the focus on more female CEOs rather than more female refuse workers.

Do you think women and men approach choosing jobs completely free from societal expectations and unconscious bias?

I'm a train driver. There are very few female train drivers but the split is much more even when it comes to conductors, which is of course the lower paid, more customer focused role. Both are shift working jobs with antisocial hours. It's frustrating that more women won't try for driving - whilst I don't for a second think every railway employee has to want to be a driver, in my experience (so yes, this is anecdotal I fully agree) male conductors often enter the role purely as a springboard to driving, and if they didn't want to be a driver when they first started they almost all start considering it. Whereas the women are much more likely to stay as conductors and say they couldn't be drivers.

No, of course not. But once you find yourself in a particular situation you're going to choose the options that appeal the most, hence the focus on more female CEOs rather than more female refuse workers.

It's the journey to your options that's important. Yes there are more female CEOs than female refuse workers but it's too simplistic (and not very helpful) to compare jobs which differ so wildly in entry routes and requirements.
It's more useful to look at why there are still more male than female CEOs or compare refuse workers with a job that has a similar level of entry requirements.

And when you choosing something that appeals you are doing so with the weight of societal expectations and stereotypes behind you.

Not read full thread yet but I remember reading a study that even with part time jobs while at uni men were paid more than women.

But who were recruiting the students - most likely men. It's possible, but I would hope it's unlikely, that if the employers were women they would give the male part time workers more than the females doing the same job.

Being a SAHM is not an easy option but it is not a life long until retirement option - once children are older they need you less, once they leave home you still have many years ahead of you. Possibly elderly relatives need your support. Part time job.

I do not understand the argument that it's not financially viable for women to remain working when they have 2 FT because their salary is swallowed up by childcare costs. All such costs should be split 50/50.

I don't understand why so many put up with this shitty situation where they are responsible for childcare costs because higher earning DC "pays the mortgage and all the important bills". I have several friends in this ridiculous situation. Now their children are older and at school but my friends (who have managed to re-enter the workforce)are stuck in poorly paid, lower status jobs way below their capabilities as they took so many years out. Obviously their husbands careers and pensions have gone from strength to strength in the interim. Some of them have drunk the kool-aid that their husbands did them a favour in enabling them to stay home because you only get this time once with your children when they are young etc.

I have always earned more than DP but he still paid a proportional share towards childcare costs. It's never the responsibility of one parent when both work.

I do not understand the argument that it's not financially viable for women to remain working when they have 2 FT because their salary is swallowed up by childcare costs. All such costs should be split 50/50

Whilst I agree with the sentiment, if you think of family money as one pot this doesn’t always make sense. If childcare costs more than one of the parents earns then the family pot is smaller if that parent works.

But I don’t think enough people think about this over a sufficiently long period of time. It’s more helpful to think of it over say a 5-10 year period. Full time childcare costs really don’t last for long before, worst case scenario free hours kick in at aged 3. Add in that from school age you only need pay for wrap around care/holiday cover and for many families over the medium to long term they would be much better off if both parents stayed in work.

Of course that only covers the financial consideration.

I agree with a lot of the points on here, but it's worth stressing that success isn't totally summed up by how much you earn. I could be the CEO of a charity and earn less than my DP, who is an account manager in the private sector. But of course this plays into the theory that women are more likely to be in caring roles or lower paid industries, like the charity sector. And the person who is paid less is usually the one who goes part time or doesn't go back at all once the children arrive.

I've always been encouraged by my parents to pursue a career I care about. DP was encouraged to earn well and progress into leadership roles. Despite being the one in a more fulfilling role, ultimately I will be the one whose career slows down when I return to work after mat leave and go part time, because I get paid less.

If childcare was more affordable, you would have far fewer women stepping down and reducing their hours. But inaffordable childcare means less women in power, and that keeps a steady stream of middle aged, draconian men ruling the roost. These men are not going to mess with a formula that fuels the patriarchy.

Partner that with societal expectations of the mother being the one who cares for the children, and little (but happily, increasing) precedent for men staying at home or reducing their hours to provide childcare.

I live in France where maternity leave is 13 weeks. Childcare is extremely affordable and subsidized. Almost no one stops work when they have children.

School hours including morning/evening clubs are 8am to 6pm so designed to work round working hours.

Affordable childcare and a culture where no one questions going back to work after kids seems to make the biggest difference. I never hear women here beating themselves up about other people raising their children etc etc.

But maybe another huge difference is France does not have an overtime culture. You are expected to work your hours only. You are not expected to be available outside those hours. If you need to leave on time no one has an issue with that.

Women still rarely make it to the very top roles but not for that reason. Women still do the majority of parenting though. ExH and I did the same job for the same company but he still expected me to be the main parent. He is an arsehole though.

DH works in nuclear research he says that 30/70 women to men in roles all the way through the organisation but 2 out of 3 divisions are run by women. In terms of researchers it's about 50/50. All the biggest boss roles have been men over the last 25 years.

I work in higher education. And I'd guess it's about 50/50. The deans tend to be men though.

On average women marry men older then them. This means by the time they have a baby usually the husband/partner will already have had longer to establish his career. Also there are a number of women that from the start look into careers that will allow them the flexibility to look after the children etc. If we want to see more men staying at home to look after the kids working part time women need to be willing to settle down with men that are younger and earn less then them

A lot has been said about women going into more 'traditional roles', but surely this is a decision made by women?

I work in Tech and I only earn less than my Husband because he has 11 years more in the industry. I got into tech with zero qualifications after working in a call centre and I basically just showed them how passionate I was.

I never back down when it comes to going for a new opportunity/ asking for more money. And I earnt more than most of the men on my level at my previous job and more than the man on the same level as me now in this one.

To me the issue comes from two areas:

Women not looking into some of the 'non - traditional industries' - why they do this I am not sure

Women not being confident enough to ask for more money which I believe is caused by assertive women being seen as 'aggressive' and this odd secrecy in most work places surrounding what people earn

In my experience, men won't make the same sacrifices women do. I'm the higher earner in my household and whilst my husband took shared parental leave so I could go back to work, there is no way on earth he would ask to reduce his hours or look for a part time job. Men are mostly unprepared to take the hit whereas it's normal for a woman to do so. On top of that, there is plenty of mum-shaming goes on so women feel guilty if they go back to a full-time job.

Not only are women shy of asking for promotion, in my experience, they are not asserting themselves around the home.

Yes, he may be working hard to pay the bills but financial is not the only contribution.

He is also contributing to the mess, the washing, the shopping etc. The house should be a team, not one person's job - as should the parenting. There's only so much one person can do. Many hands.make light work.

It took me years to stop being convinced of the patriarchal arguments and start thinking in a more self-centred (dare I say male) way and say I don't care about what's fair or unfair anymore. I just don't want to do it all anymore

I asked for promotions loads of times and didn’t get them. Given to a childless person, every time.

@Fatandfifty49

Not only are women shy of asking for promotion, in my experience, they are not asserting themselves around the home.

Yes, he may be working hard to pay the bills but financial is not the only contribution.

He is also contributing to the mess, the washing, the shopping etc. The house should be a team, not one person's job - as should the parenting. There's only so much one person can do. Many hands.make light work.

It took me years to stop being convinced of the patriarchal arguments and start thinking in a more self-centred (dare I say male) way and say I don't care about what's fair or unfair anymore. I just don't want to do it all anymore

Absolutely this! However women are shamed for expecting their OH to do their fair share and I wish I had a pound for everytime I heard " oh isnt he goood" All he did was his fair share of chores and childcare. For the house he lived in, food he ate and children he created with me. Biggest detracters ? Women

Lets get something clear also
Guilt is the feeling when you have done something wrong
Shame is the feeling when others put you down.
Stop shaming other women and passing it off as their " Mum guilt"
I feel zero guilt for the choices I, as an adult
conciously made.

Not only are women shy of asking for promotion, in my experience, they are not asserting themselves around the home.

Totally this.

Most working women have got used somewhat to the idea that they need to work harder to be on a level playing field to men. There's still a pay gap etc and many are being passed over for promotion but they at least grasp the concept that they need to be assertive about it.

This assertiveness isn't always there in the domestic sphere. Women who might control an entire department at work are getting home in the evening and worrying about whether they've hoovered properly or ordered the right light-fittings or put the dinner on before he gets back from work.

There's still a lot of work to be done on getting women to push back against this "double shift" assumption and to take as a given that they have a right not to have to do everything at home.

I guess many women feel that their domestic relationships require more diplomacy than their professional ones and they are less likely to want to rock the boat and be assertive with these.

Maybe some of us feel "guilty" about being at work all day and away from our kids, neglecting husbands etc. I'm sure I've subconsciously done this.

The home is the final frontier though. Getting men to step up here and getting it to be second nature that they plan to be involved is the hardest part and we won't ever really crack this until we do.