So where does it go wrong for women?

[Falalalafishfingers]

I'm sure this has been asked a 1009 times!
Read so many times in threads that it makes more sense for woman to give up work/ cut hours as dh/dp earns so much more. This suggests that men are already earning more pre-children?
So where does it go wrong? My guess is university.

[quote kikisparks]@Littlewhitedove2 but my mum was a mum 100% of the time, even when she was at work she was still my mum. Is a dad only a dad when he gets home from work? It was my dad who read the stories, because he wanted to, and I loved the close relationship I got with my dad by him being as much the main carer as my mum, lots of men want to be hands on parents and involved with their children, why shouldn’t they get to be?

I don’t think being a mum can be outsourced, you either are one or not, but childcare can be outsourced and I don’t think being in childcare did have any negative impact on me, I was very happy, did well in school and really close to my parents. I also gained from having amazing role models showing me that men can do childcare and housework, can enjoy raising their children, and that women can have a fulfilling career and still be a great parent, I really value that.[/quote]
That’s great and it sounds like you had a great childhood. However becoming a mum to me means being there, actually there physically with your child for the majority of the time day to day. In particular with young children. Obviously this can decrease with the childs age and independence. Yes of course dads can fill this role too, help and be involved!
I worked in a school in London years ago with many mums (and dads) having full time full on careers. The children were 4-6 years old and at least half the class had nanny’s (the nanny’s would change from year to year sometimes or more frequently that that). Others had various child minders every day and one or two wouldn’t see either of their parents for days or weeks due to foreign business trips.
I can tell you, these children had a lot of emotional needs related to the fact they had no main caregiver and it was a well known issue within the school. Much support was needed.

I’ve noticed in my sector that men seem to get promoted faster and therefore get bigger pay increases.

Moreover, all the stuff about how our species has developed etc, even if I was to agree that “it’s always been that way” is a good reason to do something (which I don’t), my understanding is that in the distant past a whole community would bring up the children and children would often be left with older relatives so their mothers could do other things, so childcare by someone other than the mother isn’t something new.

This is an excellent point.

I'm sad to see this discussion fall into the usual trap of working mums vs SAHMs.
Becoming a SAHM is a valid choice and choosing to work is also a valid choice.

However, it is important to look at what underpins these choices and acknowledge that societal expectations and stereotypes still play a huge part in those decisions.

@SueEllenMishke

Men are absolutely subject to societal expectations as well and those are very different to the expectations placed on women.

Absolutely- I don’t think this should be underestimated particularly with male suicide stats. The pressure to provide and money/status issues are huge.

But I do think the problem is that the better paid jobs require training which needs to be a built in expectation from a fairly young age. If your school/parents don’t filter for this then there is little that helps you close the gaps without huge drive and ambition. Women have successfully closed the gap somewhat over the years, there have always been women who worked and achieved success in that sphere and have paved the way for each new generation but I think it is a trajectory that needs to be maintained else it rolls back quickly. I am stunned at the internalised sexism masquerading as traditionalism with some women - who perhaps didn’t have the educational options we have and ‘ pull’ the younger women back into familiar territory when they are trying to grow and develop.

As a DGM it's not easy to find books for small children where the women are the adventurous ones.
Same with TV. Bing, RARA the lion, paw patrol, shaun the sheep, Peter Rabbit were the favourites, thankfully pepa pig was amongst them
I don't know why publishers don't produce more books where the main character is female. As DMs probably buy most children's books I'm sure they would choose. them

But I do think the problem is that the better paid jobs require training which needs to be a built in expectation from a fairly young age. If your school/parents don’t filter for this then there is little that helps you close the gaps without huge drive and ambition. Women have successfully closed the gap somewhat over the years, there have always been women who worked and achieved success in that sphere and have paved the way for each new generation but I think it is a trajectory that needs to be maintained else it rolls back quickly. I am stunned at the internalised sexism masquerading as traditionalism with some women - who perhaps didn’t have the educational options we have and ‘ pull’ the younger women back into familiar territory when they are trying to grow and develop.

Absolutely. I'm really concerned with what current research is showing in relation to women and work. During the pandemic women have been disproportionately impacted. This is partly due to women taking on a much larger share of homeschooling and household responsibilities. We're losing all the progress we've made at an alarming rate.

It also doesn't help that the sectors impacted the most are sectors which are female dominated.

@Littlewhitedove2 both my parents worked full time and they used child minders whilst I was at work but I saw them every morning, evening and all weekend, also whenever they had annual leave and one would take the day off if I was sick, it’s quite different to a child not seeing any parents for days/ weeks. I think there’s a balance where both parents can work and the child still gets lots of quality time with them. It’s absolutely fine if you want to be with your children physically for the majority of the time but I don’t think it makes you a better mum than one who works full time like mine did, like I say she was a great role model for me.

Whilst they were at work obviously not whilst I was at work!

@SueEllenMishke

But let's be honest. Most women don't want to do jobs where they get dirt under their fingernails and get covered in grease etc.

And why do you think this is?

Do you want a job where you get covered in grease ?

[quote kikisparks]@Littlewhitedove2 both my parents worked full time and they used child minders whilst I was at work but I saw them every morning, evening and all weekend, also whenever they had annual leave and one would take the day off if I was sick, it’s quite different to a child not seeing any parents for days/ weeks. I think there’s a balance where both parents can work and the child still gets lots of quality time with them. It’s absolutely fine if you want to be with your children physically for the majority of the time but I don’t think it makes you a better mum than one who works full time like mine did, like I say she was a great role model for me.[/quote]
No doubt she was, but it’s my view (and I know it’s not a popular one) that a child in the early years (age 0-3) should be with either mum or dad for most of the week, not a childminder or nursery. It didn’t impact you, but in my view, it does negatively impact many children, even if this is not blindingly obvious outwardly.

We often talk about this at our adoption group, I’m well aware this is purely anecdotal and of course adoptive parenting is very different.

Our group is mainly same sex couples, there are however straight couples as well. Its a big group, if we all tended an event there would be around 76 families, so a small sample size.

In the same sex couples almost everyone works part time, as in both parents work part time. In the straight couples there is only one Dad who doesn’t work fulltime (and he is the only straight Dad who ever attends the group), all of the straight mums either work part time or they are stay at home parents. We also see a very similar picture on the online adoption support group a few of us run.

I haven’t looked (I know, poor form) to see if there any actual reliable studies available. It would be interesting to see what the average family looks like when stereotypes are removed from relationships.

Childcare provision is poor in the UK, it is too costly and doesn’t have enough flexibility, it also isn’t valued by society as a whole. It would be interesting to see the impact better childcare provision and fairer parental leave actually had.

@PinkyParrot

As a DGM it's not easy to find books for small children where the women are the adventurous ones. Same with TV. Bing, RARA the lion, paw patrol, shaun the sheep, Peter Rabbit were the favourites, thankfully pepa pig was amongst them I don't know why publishers don't produce more books where the main character is female. As DMs probably buy most children's books I'm sure they would choose. them

It is getting slightly better, but you still open a book and a girl wants to be a nurse while a boy wants to be a doctor, its really frustrating.

I also think a lot of parents underestimate how much time and support teenagers need. It’s a common approach that a parent will work PT or not at all when the children are small and then work more when they are older. There’s a lot to be said for working more when they are younger so when they are at those tricky teenage years you are in a position to scale back on work, either hours-wise because you can afford to or because a more senior role allows you more flexibility.

Do you want a job where you get covered in grease ?

No but neither does my husband.

but it’s my view (and I know it’s not a popular one) that a child in the early years (age 0-3) should be with either mum or dad for most of the week
That depends on how good a parent the parent is - it doesn't always follow.

However becoming a mum to me means being there, actually there physically with your child for the majority of the time day to day.

😂😂😂😂

There’s a lot of super defensive working mums on this thread.

I’m not judging mums who want to or have to work. I’m saying I sympathise with the fact that there’s a conflict between career and being a mother.

I had my own business which I chose to close because I hated the fact that I couldn’t be there for my children in the way I wanted to. I am infinitely happier accepting my valuable role as a stay at home mum.

I do agree though about communities/tribes raising children together being a thing of the past being something SAHM miss out on and it can be isolating/lonely.

I wouldnt mind a job where i was covered in grease - i have a job where i get covered in vomit. I However those sort of jobs would actually need quite significant adaptions to make me as efficient as a man or even actually able to do them at all. If you look aspects of building for instance. Things are deliveried in quantities i simply cant lift so suppliers would need to halve packages and employers buy more lifting aids. Something like a brick fits more easily in an average hand for a man. So would we end up with women bricks so your house might look different but thats not a problem they just dont exist right now. I also think in physical jobs the physical impact of pregnancy is more noticeble. Things like joints being more flexible and prone to injury during pregancy are simply a fact. So you would need earlier mat leave. If you watch an electrician squeezing thrrough crawl loft spaces, the average pregnant lady is going to stop doing that quite early on. Thats not to say she cant go back to it.
So its a catch 22. They arent going to massively adapt an indusrty arpund a work force that simply isnt there but then i am not going to go into it because i cant physically do a lot of it. Even more so after 2 pregnancies one of which left me with a permanent injury.

And yes ofcourse you’re “still a mother” if you work. I’m talking about being a mother who doesn’t work therefore doesn’t use nurseries , childminders, collects their children from school, and/or is with their preschool child the vast majority of the time.

@MillieEpple

I wouldnt mind a job where i was covered in grease - i have a job where i get covered in vomit. I However those sort of jobs would actually need quite significant adaptions to make me as efficient as a man or even actually able to do them at all. If you look aspects of building for instance. Things are deliveried in quantities i simply cant lift so suppliers would need to halve packages and employers buy more lifting aids. Something like a brick fits more easily in an average hand for a man. So would we end up with women bricks so your house might look different but thats not a problem they just dont exist right now. I also think in physical jobs the physical impact of pregnancy is more noticeble. Things like joints being more flexible and prone to injury during pregancy are simply a fact. So you would need earlier mat leave. If you watch an electrician squeezing thrrough crawl loft spaces, the average pregnant lady is going to stop doing that quite early on. Thats not to say she cant go back to it. So its a catch 22. They arent going to massively adapt an indusrty arpund a work force that simply isnt there but then i am not going to go into it because i cant physically do a lot of it. Even more so after 2 pregnancies one of which left me with a permanent injury.

Have you read 'Invisible Women'? It covers topics like these - I'd highly recommend it!!

I will seek out 'invsible Women'

It doesn't have to be that way. When we had our first DC, I had just finished my training and we had moved to another part of the country. My DC was very poorly (in hospital for months) but I started work part-time (nights) to maintain my qualification. Had second DC 2 years later, was still working part-time. When 2nd DC was 2 months old we upped and moved again (DH 's promotion). I worked part-time for 6 months then a full-time position became available. DH encouraged me to take it and as we both worked shifts, we managed child care between us. 1 year later, I was promoted and changed roles and we both continued working full-time.
Five years later had 3rd DC-I took 6 months maternity leave, then DH took 6 months unpaid paternity leave (the first father in his Trust to do so). We both then worked full-time, me 9-5 and DH working shifts. I earn more than DH but we are supportive of each other and that's how it should be.

Not read full thread yet but I remember reading a study that even with part time jobs while at uni men were paid more than women.

The answer is that both parents reduce to 75% at work and pick up the rest at home.

Both working, get more in tax relief that way, both involved with the children, both also working to maintain sanity. Everyone benefits. Happy marriage.

Anything else is a scam.

That all sounds wonderful @singingsoprano but your circumstances are obviously quite unusual. You’re clearly both doctors and medicine is a profession that doesn’t disadvantage women. And there are very few families in which there’s scope in the budget for six months unpaid leave. I’m very glad it worked for you but your experience is wildly different to most women’s.