So where does it go wrong for women?

[Falalalafishfingers]

I'm sure this has been asked a 1009 times!
Read so many times in threads that it makes more sense for woman to give up work/ cut hours as dh/dp earns so much more. This suggests that men are already earning more pre-children?
So where does it go wrong? My guess is university.

With that I can agree. I didn’t like the inference it was therefore an easy ride for all men. It’s not

@BillMasen

Within the male sphere, there are obviously hierarchies and differing degrees of privilege but it is on such a different scale and level to where women’s realities are.

Sorry, didn’t finish.

Men are not working against the backdrop of having to justify their presence by gender in the way women do. As one poster said, the world of work was set up in men’s image and shaped accordingly. I don’t blame ‘men’ for that - it is historical, practical but it means we are always playing against something in ourselves.

I attended an all girls school. It really is an eye opener seeing how much compromise women and girls make in comparison to my all female environment (Convent). Obviously men compromise too but in terms of depth , I don’t think it is in the same league.

I havnt read the whole thread..have been at work looking after Covid patients until 10pm . I think that females generally prefer to look after their offspring and so it does reflect on their ability to progress in their chosen career.

My comment was realistic and not sexist!!

@Nochristmasbreak

I wish I knew.

I know so many women that went to university, then found careers, were good at it and working their way up the ladder, then boom along comes a baby or 3, and they want to give up their careers to bake bloody cookies, pretend to be Pinterest mums and post on bloody Instagram. Not earning a penny whilst their husbands have all the control.

Husband then gets bored as they fell in love with an intelligent professional they now have a mum and cook at home, so they sleep with their assistants.

I wish women would bloody stop giving up all their intelligence and careers because of a family.

(Yes I get it makes some happy but come on!)

What a bizarre attitude? Do you have children and did you go back to work 2 weeks after they were born then? The reason many women halt their careers is because they (gasp) want to care for and feed their newborn babies!? Who would have thought it? I mean it’s only how the human race has actually survived through the millennia? I don’t think many babies centuries ago would have survived if the mother had left them to the father to feed and care for at 2 weeks old somehow. Most women have a built in desire to care for their children. This is actually juxtaposed by the fact that they have spent years working hard, building a career and passing degrees and exams. Women want babies and thank god they do because if it wasn’t for this maternal urge no one would bloody go though the pain, body changes, sleeplessness, sore boobs and general nightmare that is birth and a newborn. They wouldn’t do it once, let alone multiple times! Families work best when one partner takes on the main caregiver and one earns. It is usually the woman who is the caregiver because usually that’s what the woman wants. The fact she has to pause (and often compromise) her career and earnings is a result of that

@Littlewhitedove2 “ Families work best when one partner takes on the main caregiver and one earns.”

Personally that might work for some but I don’t think it’s right to say it works best for all. My parents both worked full time and cared for me equally and I had a great childhood, have done well in life and am close to them now. Our family worked very well with equal earning and caregiving and I’m glad I’m so close to my dad, a man who was up at nights with me, cooked my dinners, cleaned my clothes, picked me up from school and took me to the park or to get sweets, took me to the library, drove me to activities, read to me each night and so much more, as my mum did too.

Men originate from boys; and we are the ones bringing up those boys. We need to bring them up differently - it requires a whole new mindset. I have no idea how though!

Me exusrd to say women ask for permision, men ask for forgiveness.

It does seem in a lot of decisions women ask to do something and are told no, while men just do it and then reap either the rewards or consequences

"Who would have thought it? I mean it’s only how the human race has actually survived through the millennia?"

Up until the last 300 years or so the human race survived on subsistence farming and near zero output.

Anyone who's living on a philosophy "millenia" old is an idiot, or in an undiscovered tribe.

Thing is, constantly focusing on 'more women in the boardroom' is not going to create more female road workers or female carpenters. Surely that's obvious.

But let's be honest. Most women don't want to do jobs where they get dirt under their fingernails and get covered in grease etc.

The reality of the world we live in doesn't match with the ideology many want it to IMO.

I am a mum of one who has been in the past the ‘breadwinner’ earning around 15k more than my OH. After having my daughter my hand has been forced to go part time (at a different company) as there is no part time opportunities for my OH. That may be another reason women tend to give up their careers.

Families work best when one partner takes on the main caregiver and one earns.
It is usually the woman who is the caregiver because usually that’s what the woman wants. The fact she has to pause (and often compromise) her career and earnings is a result of that

I fundamentally disagree with this.

Families work best when both parents take on equal caring roles.
You are also massively (or just ignoring) the role of societal expectations and stereotypes and influence they have on the roles we play at home and at work and the choices we make.

But let's be honest. Most women don't want to do jobs where they get dirt under their fingernails and get covered in grease etc.

And why do you think this is?

Families work best when one partner takes on the main caregiver and one earns

I disagree. I think families work best when both parents are equally involved in caring for a child. And as this thread has proved, otherwise it’s nearly always the woman who gives up work which just goes further to reinforce the stereotypes. And I don’t believe that hardly seeing one parent is good for a child which is more likely to happen if one parent doesn’t work.

Much of the work that women do isn't taken seriously or regarded as worthy of high pay, and even where women are doing work that is taken seriously or highly paid, they are still not taken as seriously as men when it comes to recruitment, opportunities and promotion in the workplace. And even when they are promoted and given opportunities, women are still frequently paid less than men doing the same work.

After reading some of the posts on here, such as, women don't like getting grease under their fingernails and families work better when one caregiver stays at home there's no wonder women end up with lower paid or no job at all, it's so ingrained into women that this is 'their lot' that I bet a really high % of women are brain washed into thinking these things. As parents we should be teaching our daughters that they can do anything they want, not just become mothers or jobs that are lower level.

Personally, and it is probably v sexist, I feel that women want to work with people and /or help people. Men are focussed on what they want, don't consider others. So women end up as nurses and social workers. Women want to socialise at work so sitting alone at a desk doesn't appeal so much.

So often young teenage girls want to 'help' people so end up in these lower paid jobs. But you can help people if you are a manager of a huge team, you can help the team achieve and be successful you don't have to be a nurse. I don't intend to denigrate nurses, their job carries huge responsiblity and knowledge.

Second problem is the 40 hour week, 40 hour weeks don't work with small children in the house. There should be an option for everyone to cut to 4 day week when the children are small.

Personally, and it is probably v sexist, I feel that women want to work with people and /or help people. Men are focussed on what they want, don't consider others. So women end up as nurses and social workers. Women want to socialise at work so sitting alone at a desk doesn't appeal so much.

So often young teenage girls want to 'help' people so end up in these lower paid jobs. But you can help people if you are a manager of a huge team, you can help the team achieve and be successful you don't have to be a nurse. I don't intend to denigrate nurses, their job carries huge responsiblity and knowledge.

And what do think this is??

Clue: societal expectations and stereotypes.

*why

And what do think this is??

Clue: societal expectations and stereotypes

Yes.- seen to be 'kind'

• but remembering my teens, I was just obsessed with the boys I fell for and daydreaming of marriage.

So there is an issue with rising oestrogen too I think.

@PinkyParrot I think your point comes down to the type of career advice young teenage girls are given and society’s projection of what a caring role is.

You’re right that someone could be a very caring manager and run a team well in a senior position but how often do girls get told, ‘you’re so good at team working, you have great leadership skills and you’d make a great manager one day’.

I think unless we see parent doing a similar role young people don’t understand those jobs exist or how to get to them.

It starts well before careers advice is available. Children start learning about appropriate girls and boys jobs around ages 4&5.

Careers advice is there to challenge stereotypes.

@PinkyParrot

And what do think this is??

Clue: societal expectations and stereotypes

Yes.- seen to be 'kind'

• but remembering my teens, I was just obsessed with the boys I fell for and daydreaming of marriage.

So there is an issue with rising oestrogen too I think.

And boys aren't dealing with hormones too?

As for dreaming about marriage- again that's down to societal expectations. That's what girls are taught to do