to set a boundary with DH about yelling at our toddler?

[lapaverde]

My daughter is 1.5 years old, teething, and in a sleep regression - she is quite a handful to deal with at the moment, especially during lockdown as we both attempt to work full time and provide round the clock childcare. However, I am trying my best not to let her see my frustration or stress. My DH, on the other hand, has quite a temper. This has already caused conflict because he accuses me of being over-sensitive, but the issue I'm asking about concerns DD. The other day she was whining and DH wheeled on her and said, with fists clenched and in a sharp tone, 'Shut up!' She immediately started crying hysterically because we have never used that tone with her, ever.

I defused the situation but later, at a calm time, approached DH and said, "I know we are under a lot of stress and she can be frustrating, but you mustn't ever speak to her that way. It caused her a great deal of upset." He responded by: 1) accusing me of being unreasonable - 'all parents lose their temper,' and 2) holding him to a higher standard than I do myself. When I pointed out -accurately! - that I have never once raised my voice at her, he said, 'Well, you've made a long list of mistakes as a parent - shall I start elaborating them?'

I'm concerned because his reaction is so defensive. Surely he can see that it's not okay to frighten a toddler, no matter how difficult she's being! He claims he doesn't remember her crying, 'or if she was, who knows what it was about.' But I can't stop seeing her shocked little face right before she started to cry. DH is constantly harping about how I am conflict averse and can't deal with normal interaction - so AIBU here?

I love that people think an 18 month old is just going to happily sit for more than 10 minutes whilst both parents work and if OP can't magically get her toddler on board she is 'controlling', precious or deluded. We used a lot of peppa and duggee when DD was that age ish in lockdown 1 and it did no harm but it she wouldn't just sit there hour after hour so we could work. We had to work core hours so couldn't do shifts between is which is arguably much better. To be honest I don't think the way OP spoke to her husband was patronising but I do wonder if a) she moderated her tone and wording as to not further anger her husband b) she works in the public sector. I have used a similar tone and my husband tells me not to talk to him like a client. I tell him that I wouldn't if he stopped acting like one! I'm not sure letting rip at him and telling him if he ever did that again she would rip his head off and kick him out the door would have been any better?

I would see absolutely nothing wrong with a toddler playing and having one eye on the TV to give WFH parents a bit of a break.

TV for 12 hours a day....NO

TV to give parents a break...definitely.

TV for children is NOT the devil.

Plonking a child in front the tv for an hour when a parent is stressed or overwhelmed is 10 times better than losing it and screaming.🙄

Sometimes the solution becomes clear when you read everything the OP says about a man all the same, and refrain from making stuff up about the woman in order to crusade against what you perceive to be unequal treatment of men.

Nobody has to put up with a 'temper' in their partner. Asking him to rein it in or get a grip isn't controlling.

This man clenched his fists and shouted 'Shutup!' at a baby.

Lord almighty. As if none of us have screamed at our own children and lost our shit?

@Cornetttttto

Lord almighty. As if none of us have screamed at our own children and lost our shit?

Yes, but most of us feel upset, guilty and a terrible parent once we've calmed down. He just feels it's entirely OP's fault. I've shouted at my baby and for weeks afterwards felt utterly terrible. And I read as much as I could about coping strategies and how to be better. What I didn't do was blame my partner or my baby for my lapse.

Maybe he does feel awful and upset. He wouldnt be telling that to his wife who decided to tell him off in a patronising way. It is interesting how many posters immideately jumped to the conclusion that if a husband lost his shit once and shouted at a baby(I quite agree it is wrong) then she should kick him out. I've seen quite a few threads here where women confess on shouting at their small children and the general consensus is 'give yourself a break, your husband should support you more, maybe you have postnatal depression'.

The visualisation of his clenched fist, trying to hold his temper in, when dealing with a toddler is just awful.

I would be absolutely appalled and terrified to see that in my husband.

People might get stressed sure, but to have to hold yourself back with a clenched fist is neither normal nor acceptable.

@Iwonder08

Maybe he does feel awful and upset. He wouldnt be telling that to his wife who decided to tell him off in a patronising way. It is interesting how many posters immideately jumped to the conclusion that if a husband lost his shit once and shouted at a baby(I quite agree it is wrong) then she should kick him out. I've seen quite a few threads here where women confess on shouting at their small children and the general consensus is 'give yourself a break, your husband should support you more, maybe you have postnatal depression'.

He’s not here confessing it, crying and wondering if he’s a good enough father. That makes a big difference.

The prevailing advice that you shouldn’t disagree in front of the children might be meant well but then it sometimes leads to issues where by bringing it up gently later, you are seen as being patronising. A shocked “look, she’s upset and terrified now!” would be a more truthful and potentially more helpful reaction.

@ItWorriesMeThisKindofThing, speaking from bitter experience, the moment when your husband has just clenched his fists and shouted 'Shutup!' at the baby is not the moment to address his behaviour.

A display of rage such as that (it is not a case of 'losing his temper) is designed to intimidate not only the person being shouted at, but everyone else in the home too. Raging is part of an overall pattern of complete domination that often includes displays of anger, criticism, moodiness and blaming.

The raging behaviour is intended to literally silence all criticism. It is emotionally and psychologically abusive.

A man engaging in this sort of behaviour can often take things much further if someone tries to make him see reason while he is raging.

Speaking to a baby like that - a big no no. BUT we all lose our shit with our kids sometimes and it sounds like life is pretty stressful at the moment

Do you clench your fists too? Only I'm wondering how someone can smoothly gloss over/omit that as if a sharp tone, angry face and clenched fists from someone who is more than twice their size wouldn't frighten the fuck out of an 17 month old child.

[quote mathanxiety]@ItWorriesMeThisKindofThing, speaking from bitter experience, the moment when your husband has just clenched his fists and shouted 'Shutup!' at the baby is not the moment to address his behaviour.

A display of rage such as that (it is not a case of 'losing his temper) is designed to intimidate not only the person being shouted at, but everyone else in the home too. Raging is part of an overall pattern of complete domination that often includes displays of anger, criticism, moodiness and blaming.

The raging behaviour is intended to literally silence all criticism. It is emotionally and psychologically abusive.

A man engaging in this sort of behaviour can often take things much further if someone tries to make him see reason while he is raging.[/quote]
I accept this completely. Tbh it doesn’t sound like a man like this will ever reflect on his behaviour. He’s always going to be defensive, but yes I see that trying to talk in the moment could be unsafe.

@DeeCeeCherry I've been over this with another poster so I'm not getting into a handbag fight with you. Read my other posts, I don't defend, I come from a place of trying to see the middle ground and offer sensible advice based on the information we know. If you don't agree with me, that's fine and you're within your rights not to.

I'm worried about you OP. His anger and shouting must make it very hard to assert your needs and boundaries, including in counselling. Set yourself a few clear red lines and tests. If you say no to him when you want something different what happens. If you don't pick your moments or walk on eggshells what happens. Then imagine your daughter as a teenager being challenging and refusing to tiptoe around him and imagine if he will be able to parent her compassionately which means letting her win some battles and assert herself.

It seems you have three problems:

1. your DH thinks it’s ok and his right to express anger to you and your DD
2. you are both working full time with no childcare
3. you are not even using the respite provided by CBeebies 3 is easily fixed. It’s not clear to what extent 2 is contributing to 1. But if your DH can’t see that expressing anger is a problem, he can’t be an adequate parent

As pps here have warned, I am worried this is escalating. Today DH manufactured a controversy about childcare - we use a google calendar to keep track of each other's work obligations, and earlier in the week he agreed (by accepting a calendar invite) to watch DD while I am giving an important presentation this afternoon. This morning he claims that he has a meeting in the exact same timeslot, which he can't miss, and that I verbally agreed 'weeks ago' to watch DD during this time. I didn't budge, of course - people are paying to attend my presentation, and DH had already agreed to look after our daughter! He went on a long rant about how 'I always have to be right' and 'I tell him off for shouting when he barely raises his voice.' In the past I might have spent hours fretting that I somehow miscommunicated poorly, but the calendar invite he accepted is right there, proof he is being unreasonable. This seems like abnormal behavior to me.

I have contacted my individual therapist and yesterday had a one-to-one with our couples' therapist. I am hoping professionals can help step in at this point. I just feel so, so frightened, and at times (most of the time now) I feel completely justified in my anger, but other times I question if I am - as DH says - 'creating drama.'

Yours is an example of the enormous pressures on working parents who are trying to juggle child care.

You are both at breakdown point. Often that means the relationship is finished but Covid has placed extraordinary extra demands on couples in your situation and when normal times return so might the love.

If you do decide to continue, ask yourself whether you do always need to be right, because it isn't easy living with someone who does always need to be right.

You're not causing drama at all. Well done for sticking to your guns and hopefully the professionals can help somewhat. Have you thought about how much you're willing to put up with and try to work through the issues of the relationship? It's clear that there is a lot simmering in the background but it can't go on forever if you feel like it's never ending. Have you thought about mentioning separation (if that's something you're thinking about) during therapy (safe space) to see what he says?

Your definitely not causing drama. He is trying to test your boundaries and place himself as the victim so that he can rewrite the narrative (check out DARVO). If anything he is the one causing drama isn't he by his behaviour. You would presumably rather not battle with him over childcare or his anger. He is choosing to create these issue, particularly today and being unable to have a conversation with him about his behaviour. The issue now is that he may keep pushing and pushing

Getting angry is normal. But as adults we have a choice about the words we choose when we're angry.

Children (as well as being the most wonderful things in our lives) can be really really frustrating.

I've sometimes felt like shouting "shut up" at DD (now 4) but I haven't because I'm an adult, and I love her, so I turn it into "please stop doing that right now" or "you need to stop that", or "you're getting a bit too wild".

I can't imagine shouting at her for being upset or in pain, at all.

Shut up is so dismissive, and aggressive, it's not something I'd say to an adult, let alone a child.

Seen your update.

He is attempting to punish you for standing your ground.

I'm sorry you are going through this.

He is the one that created the drama in your latest problem, not you. I have found that men use that 'you always have to be right' shit to shut you up. When i was younger i was convinced that i was like that, always needing to be right, then i realised that it only happened with my dh, never at work, or with my family, or in my large circle of friends. It was his way of shutting me up whenever we had a disagreement and things weren't going his way.

@lapaverde

To the posters pointing out my patronizing tone - yup, I see that now, and that's on me. Still not sure how to move forward as DH wants me to apologize for "the mess I created" and won't engage on his behaviour towards DD. I did say sorry for my tone.

I absolutely wouldn't apologise. You didn't create the mess; he did.

You've already said sorry for your tone. Has he said sorry for his tone with DD?

Why shouldn't he be held to the same standards as you?

so now its your fault because he didnt put a meeting down n the calendar

is anything his fault

OP, are you aware that couple’s therapy isn’t really recommended for people in abusive relationships?

Your focus now should be on supporting your own mental health, not healing the relationship.