to set a boundary with DH about yelling at our toddler?

[lapaverde]

My daughter is 1.5 years old, teething, and in a sleep regression - she is quite a handful to deal with at the moment, especially during lockdown as we both attempt to work full time and provide round the clock childcare. However, I am trying my best not to let her see my frustration or stress. My DH, on the other hand, has quite a temper. This has already caused conflict because he accuses me of being over-sensitive, but the issue I'm asking about concerns DD. The other day she was whining and DH wheeled on her and said, with fists clenched and in a sharp tone, 'Shut up!' She immediately started crying hysterically because we have never used that tone with her, ever.

I defused the situation but later, at a calm time, approached DH and said, "I know we are under a lot of stress and she can be frustrating, but you mustn't ever speak to her that way. It caused her a great deal of upset." He responded by: 1) accusing me of being unreasonable - 'all parents lose their temper,' and 2) holding him to a higher standard than I do myself. When I pointed out -accurately! - that I have never once raised my voice at her, he said, 'Well, you've made a long list of mistakes as a parent - shall I start elaborating them?'

I'm concerned because his reaction is so defensive. Surely he can see that it's not okay to frighten a toddler, no matter how difficult she's being! He claims he doesn't remember her crying, 'or if she was, who knows what it was about.' But I can't stop seeing her shocked little face right before she started to cry. DH is constantly harping about how I am conflict averse and can't deal with normal interaction - so AIBU here?

The way I see it, yes he's right that, if not all, at least a lot of parents lose their temper with their children, but when spoken to about it he should have apologised and been very contrite.

I've shouted at my children and been 'red mist' angry at things they've done before, but I've always been ashamed and really sad about my behaviour afterwards. They are older now and fine; I haven't messed them up with the few instances of losing it that I've had, so hopefully it'll be forgotten by your DD.

Your DH needs to realise that he can't be like that regularly, and that he should be feeling shame. If he isn't I'd worry about his self control in the heat of the moment.

DH does not shout at me when she is around - it is confined to her naptimes or when she's in bed.

@lapaverde
So it is 100% something that is under his control and therefore he is choosing to do this.

He is very angry in the sessions. He feels my over-sensitivity stifles his ability to express normal anger. This is a big part of why I feel so unsure about the situation - perhaps I am making mountains out of molehills, or interpreting normal nagging as yelling, because I'm so conflict averse?

He is not expressing 'normal anger' if he is able to choose when to shout at you. He is not losing his temper, he is using his temper.

Normal anger is different in both timing and frequency.
Normal anger is not frequent.
Normal anger is spur of the moment.
Normal anger is followed by an apology and a sincere effort to try better next time if a partner has objected to it.
Keeping on shouting at you regularly when he knows it distresses you means he is trying to wear away your self esteem and dominate you.

Normal anger is not disproportionate to the trigger - an adult who shouts with clenched fists at a toddler is expressing more than anger. He is expressing rage, out of all proportion to the immediate irritant. It is the sort of rage that leads to heinous child abuse.

What you are reporting about his point of view in couples therapy is incredibly worrying. He is simply refusing to give up his right to silence you, frighten you, and distress you whenever he feels like it.

Choosing anger as a means of communicating and staunchly defending what he is doing as "normal anger/ your reaction is the problem" means he has some aim in mind. He is telling you that he is the only one in the relationship who has the right to express anger. Your anger at what he did to the baby and your objection to being shouted at are characterised by him as reactions that is over sensitive or disproportionate.

The aim in deliberately shouting at one's partner is always abusive, with the usual aims of the abuser in mind. Those aims are - to silence you, to grind you down and destroy your confidence, and finally to make you feel you have no option but to stay and put up with the abuse.

This man has now well and truly thrown down the gauntlet with his refusal to take your concerns about what he did to the baby seriously.
The aim in shouting with clenched fists at the toddler is to make you terrified.

You are in a fight to the finish, @lapaverde.

I am sorry, but you have to choose the baby or him now. He wants you to show him that you are completely under his thumb by accepting his absolute right to terrify the baby and not be challenged about it.

Therapy will get you nowhere. Stay with your own individual therapy, but frankly if your therapist hasn't advised you to leave this angry man yet, he or she is not worth a penny of what you are paying for your sessions. Get a new therapist, one who specialises in counseling women involved in abusive relationships.

It's time to make a big decision.

Before we were married I would never had said anger was an issue. It did start to get worse around when I got pregnant, but there were other stressors (job) around then too. But the real acceleration has been in the past 8 or 9 months.

He has never physically harmed me or shown any inclination of doing so. In some ways I feel it would be easier to draw a red line if something like that happened, and I would doubt myself less (not that I actually want it to come to that, of course!)

He doesn't have to be physical to be highly abusive.
He is insisting on getting what he wants all the same, and trying to get the therapist on side to bully you into submission too.

The hope that this doesn't mean what you think it means because he hasn't been physical is one held by thousands of women in abusive relationships, @lapaverde.

It's a toxic kind of optimism because it insulates you from the truth that your gut is trying to make you accept.

Pregnancy frequently coincides with the start of abuse. It's a textbook coincidence.

Of course there were other stressors when you were first pregnant, but were there no stressors during the previous ten years?
How does he respond to stress when he is in the office or workplace?

I fear you are placing this kind of behaviour in a context that seeks to partly explain it. It's a way of keeping you hopeful that once there is no stress then the shouting will stop.

The anger your H is showing is not rationally explicable anger. It's personality driven, not a result of any given situation.

I think you way you said 'you must not speak to her like that' was really patronising. Like you were telling him off. Then you you tried to point score by pointing out how you never raised your voice. I agree. As much as what he did was inexcusable, I don't think speaking to him like a child is helpful. It also won't be positive for the relationship in general (neither will him acting that way).

on one hand I worry that I'm massively overreacting here. Why do you think this? How specifically do you think you're overreacting?
OTOH I worry I'm like the frog in boiling water, and I'll end up letting DH yell at DD and rationalize it away. Why do you feel you'll let him? That would make you just as bad as him to stand there and watch.

If anything like that happens again please don't wait to intervene.

@StacySoloman

I don't think anyone, women or babies, should have to live with men with bad tempers who shout at and frighten them.

I wouldn't stay in a relationship with someone who frequently shouted at me, I find that totally unacceptable and that is my boundary.
I don't want my children to experience that either.

I wrote a big long thing about my ragey, angry father and my mum, who was forever "defusing situations" caused by my dad and his nasty temper, but what @StacySoloman said above covers it.

These big black clouds of men who ruin everything for everyone with their moods and tempers. I bet you find without realising that you'll be tripping over yourself trying to keep DD out of his way or keep her occupied the next time she's "being annoying". fuck that.

"You must not speak to her like that" is FINE by the way.

She's 1 and a half years old. He really must not speak to her like that. Ever. I don't think it's OP who needs to be thinking about her choice of words or actions here. Bunch of apologists.

Re: the effects on DD, DH does not shout at me when she is around - it is confined to her naptimes or when she's in bed Sorry if pps have already said this but to me that shows he can control when he shouts. What is your reaction when he shouts at you?

I have to say if my partner regularly shouted at me he'd be out the door, nevermind if he started on the children.

Bunch of apologists No one has said it was ok for him to do what he did just that when having a discussion there are ways to phrase things. Just because he's been a cunt doesn't mean she has to be patronising.

This time he clenched his fist and shouted right at her. What if next time he looses his temper he clenches his fist and punches her? It is such a fine line. He has anger management issues and needs to.desl with these before he is safe around your DC. I would not be leaving him with her even for s second. He needs to give her a cuddle and apologies to your dd. What made him suddenly snap? Is his job under threat? Does he have mental health issues? There must be some reason why if he has never done this before. You need to find why.

@WaterOffADucksCrack

Bunch of apologists No one has said it was ok for him to do what he did just that when having a discussion there are ways to phrase things. Just because he's been a cunt doesn't mean she has to be patronising.

You sound like my mum, explaining it to me. My dad would rage at us and one of us kids would blurt something out back in defence (usually, "don't shout at me like that" or something similar, while crying) and my mum would take us aside afterwards and speak to us about our "tone of voice" and being more careful how we spoke to him. Then she'd have a special soft tone of voice she'd use to ask my dad in an ever so polite way to basically calm the fuck down and try to just get angry in private rather than in front of us. It's so messed up. My mother used to think that it was just her he got the rage with, and she could cope with that, but then he snapped at me - the eldest - when I was a young child and then subsequently my siblings.

I think OP was extremely calm and measured talking to him, considering. Considering he's been shouting at her during lockdown. And has now snapped at their child:

"I defused the situation but later, at a calm time, approached DH and said, "I know we are under a lot of stress and she can be frustrating, but you mustn't ever speak to her that way. It caused her a great deal of upset."

That is SO measured and calm. It's factual and descriptive of what happened. What special words should she have chosen to not set him off again do you think then?

You've apologised for your tone, what is he doing about his angry outburst?

We all get frustrated and sometimes shout as parents, most of us have done this. But his response to you talking to him about it would be a problem for me.

Why are you trying to both work and look after her? That’s completely wrong- it’s fine if you both want to work but she needs to be in paid childcare with a trusted, regulated childminder or nursery.

Babies and toddlers need playing with, stimulating and interaction - you can’t give that if you work. Please don’t just leave her in front of TV etc. She’s so young- just a baby.

You’re completely right on the shouting - DH should not be shouting at her at all. She is a young toddler - they don’t understand rules or reasons for things at this age. She’s not 6, she’s 1.5 - for all intents and purposes she’s still a baby and needs gentle treatment as a result.

Clenched fists!!!!

Sorry but i wouldnt leave my baby with him

There’s a few concerning things standing out. The clenched fists at a baby, definitely. The fact you say he has a temper, I don’t know any adult I would describe as having a temper because as an adult they should have learnt how to handle feelings. Of course people have arguments but a temper suggests flying off at small things? Thirdly the fact that you clearly can’t communicate with him because he is using your abusive childhood to say you’re conflict averse, he should be more mindful of how an abusive childhood means you want different and better for your child and also how that shouting will trigger bad memories for you.

@VestaTilley we would never leave her in front of a screen! She has never even watched TV. My husband and I alternate wfh, he works mornings and I afternoons, while the other plays with her, brings her to the park, etc. Then we catch up on more work after she goes to bed and early in the am. She was in nursery but they keep shutting down with Covid, so it's not safe. It is this insane schedule - working or childminding from 5 am to 10 pm, 7 days a week - that is contributing to DHs stress. And the nature of our jobs means PT isn't an option.

Many pps have said my husband is abusive. I have to consider this, for DD sake of nothing else. But part of me does wonder if DH is just cracking under the strain, and things will return to normal later? But maybe this is naive

'But part of me does wonder if DH is just cracking under the strain, and things will return to normal later? But maybe this is naive'
Let's imagine he was to lose his job or some other major stressor.Would he then be justified in shouting at his child and clenching his fists. Normal life shouldn't be necessary in order for him to not lose his temper with a toddler.

OP,
You sound like a great mum.

Listen very carefully to your gut at this time.

YOU saw your daughter's face.

His anger has developed and escalated since you have had your child.

No doubt about it....life is very stressful, particularly .....for wfh parents.

However,......

His fist is very concerning.

His anger is concerning.

His refusal to enage with you, is concerning.

His blaming you is concerning.

You are very rightly concerned.

There are many apologists on MN for angry abusive men.

You need to focus on your gut in the moment, and what you saw.

From what you have written about his anger...are you living the "boiling frog analogy"?.

Make sure your contraception is bullet proof and be very careful.

Protect yourself.
Reach out IRL for support.

Make a proactive plan for yourself and your daughter if he continues to very wrongly blame YOU for his anger.

Then he can ‘crack under the strain’ of a baby somewhere else, away from inflicting terror and cortisol and adrenaline surges in the baby he chose to creates developing brain. He can just fuck off. The sole focus should be on the infant, not the chest thumping aggressive male who sadly created the baby.

But you’re under the same stress and you aren’t yellling. I think as others have said, it’s not just the anger that’s the problem, it’s the way he is manipulating the situation, blaming you. It’s cold and calculated. He knows what he’s doing. This is who he is.

What special words should she have chosen to not set him off again do you think then?

That is a great question, @ApocalypseBiscuits.

So many women waste their lives trying to find the magic formula. I spent years and years at it. The few times I saw a little change only served to reinforce my hope that I could find the elusive formula again.

The quest for the right words and the right tone can consume you. You end up focusing completely on The Mood Today And How To Deal With It.

You can't be a good mother and at the same time hyper focused on preventing situations and scenes, or defusing them. You can't be true to yourself if only one person in a relationship is allowed to express anger.

Ponder this quote from Lundy Bancroft:
“YOUR ABUSIVE PARTNER DOESN’T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH HIS ANGER; HE HAS A PROBLEM WITH YOUR ANGER.
One of the basic human rights he takes away from you is the right to be angry with him. No matter how badly he treats you, he believes that your voice shouldn’t rise and your blood shouldn’t boil. The privilege of rage is reserved for him alone. When your anger does jump out of you—as will happen to any abused woman from time to time—he is likely to try to jam it back down your throat as quickly as he can."

This is what he is trying to do to you, @lapaverde

...part of me does wonder if DH is just cracking under the strain, and things will return to normal later? But maybe this is naive
Yes, you are being naive.
No, he is not cracking under the strain.

This incident is going to leave a mark. How can things ever be normal again after you have seen your H clench his fists and shout at a baby to shut up? If you saw a man in a supermarket doing that, what would you feel about him?

You are never going to fully trust this man around your DD again. Whenever you feel like going for a walk and leaving DD with her own father you are going to think again. No shopping trips (whenever that becomes possible). Maybe no more long soaks in the bathtub.

While the three of you are locked down, you are going to try really hard to make sure DD doesn't do what toddlers naturally do - they make noise, they complain, they whine, they throw tantrums, they cry, they defy their parents. Even after the lockdown, you are always going to feel under pressure to make DD 'behave' herself, because those clenched fists are going to remain at the back of your mind forever.

[quote lapaverde]@VestaTilley we would never leave her in front of a screen! She has never even watched TV. My husband and I alternate wfh, he works mornings and I afternoons, while the other plays with her, brings her to the park, etc. Then we catch up on more work after she goes to bed and early in the am. She was in nursery but they keep shutting down with Covid, so it's not safe. It is this insane schedule - working or childminding from 5 am to 10 pm, 7 days a week - that is contributing to DHs stress. And the nature of our jobs means PT isn't an option.

Many pps have said my husband is abusive. I have to consider this, for DD sake of nothing else. But part of me does wonder if DH is just cracking under the strain, and things will return to normal later? But maybe this is naive[/quote]
We would never leave her in front of a screen.

I suspect the truth is you would never leave her in front or a screen and you forbid your husband from doing so. If that is so perhaps you need to look at your controlling behaviour.

Oh if only there was a way to ask the DC of all the posters saying they'd never yelled at them if it was true

What utter nonsense @Uhhuhoyaye.

It could very well be naive but this may also be worth bringing up during your individual and couples therapy. I would also be discussing with him during therapy that you may be left with no other option but to leave if he doesn't sort himself out. It would be a good environment for you to mention this with the support of your therapist and he can't ignore the situation.

@mathanxiety

What utter nonsense *@Uhhuhoyaye*.

in these covid times of working from home, a toddler could be happily watching TV enabling her parents to do some work.

Not allowing a tole to watch TV is foolishly precious and very likely to increase tension in these difficult times.

MN thrives on calling out male faults, sometimes the solution might be to look closer to home.

.