to set a boundary with DH about yelling at our toddler?

[lapaverde]

My daughter is 1.5 years old, teething, and in a sleep regression - she is quite a handful to deal with at the moment, especially during lockdown as we both attempt to work full time and provide round the clock childcare. However, I am trying my best not to let her see my frustration or stress. My DH, on the other hand, has quite a temper. This has already caused conflict because he accuses me of being over-sensitive, but the issue I'm asking about concerns DD. The other day she was whining and DH wheeled on her and said, with fists clenched and in a sharp tone, 'Shut up!' She immediately started crying hysterically because we have never used that tone with her, ever.

I defused the situation but later, at a calm time, approached DH and said, "I know we are under a lot of stress and she can be frustrating, but you mustn't ever speak to her that way. It caused her a great deal of upset." He responded by: 1) accusing me of being unreasonable - 'all parents lose their temper,' and 2) holding him to a higher standard than I do myself. When I pointed out -accurately! - that I have never once raised my voice at her, he said, 'Well, you've made a long list of mistakes as a parent - shall I start elaborating them?'

I'm concerned because his reaction is so defensive. Surely he can see that it's not okay to frighten a toddler, no matter how difficult she's being! He claims he doesn't remember her crying, 'or if she was, who knows what it was about.' But I can't stop seeing her shocked little face right before she started to cry. DH is constantly harping about how I am conflict averse and can't deal with normal interaction - so AIBU here?

[quote MaMaD1990]@Cokie3 you need to calm down a bit. Nowhere did OP say that he clenched his fists at the baby, simply that they were clenched (which is a reaction some people have when they tense up when annoyed). He wasn't waving his fists in the childs face as far as I can see. A measured and calm response is needed here, not an overly hyped emotional response. Remember you are a stranger on the internet and only the OP can make a decision about her baby and relationship. Don't jump to conclusions and think you know it all, it's not helpful.[/quote]
wheeled on her and said, with fists clenched

That, is more than clear. Please stop minimising abuse. The OP has said she like a 'frog in boiling water' has rationalised his temper. Hence why strangers (like myself with experience with Social Services and DV) are telling her this is abuse. He didn't just clench his fists, sigh, then go over to her. He wheeled on her and said, with fists clenched. Please stop minimising this. Both her and the baby are at risk, and posters like you who minimise this risk are quite dangerous to someone who is in a vulnerable situation.

Does he shout at people 'above' him - at work and in social situations? Or does he save his loss of temper for those 'below' him?

It isn't acceptable to shout at your (equal) partner nor at a baby; it might be understandable in a particular case .. but that does not make it right and he should recognise how wrong it is.

You said that you came from an abusive background. Could this be another one?

I'm glad that you recognised and stood up to him on his treatment of your baby.

Do you also recognise the wrong in his treatment of you?
Don't accept it.

This is not good OP, not good at all. The fact that you said he has shouted at you extremely frequently shows that he is an aggressive man who cannot hold his temper. Instead of taking ownership of this he retaliates by bringing up all his perceived faults of yours.

Unless he can admit to his aggressive nature and do his best to curb it things will only get worse as your daughter gets older and sometimes does things to irritate him

@MaMaD1990

Threatening to leave would definitely be OTT, unless he is continually aggressive which is a whole other issue. Have you tried to approach the situation in a way that doesn't criticise him? Such as "DD behaviour is quite hard to deal with at the moment. How do you think we should deal with it?". This was you are deciding together how to parent and he isn't feeling like he's backed into a corner. I do this often with my partner (no issues with yelling but he can be pretty soft) and I do some research on different techniques we can use to sort whatever the behavioural issue is out. I just say "oh I've read up on X and apparently this is a good way to deal with it. How do you feel about trying it out for a while and see if it works?"

Threatening to leave would definitely be OTT

Threatening to leave, after the OP has said she has experienced verbal abuse by her husband, and after he shouted at a baby, approaching said baby with fists clenched (per her OP) is 'OTT'? It is 'advice' like that, that sees women remain in dysfunctional relationships where she is being abused and the children is being abused. Threatening to leave is not OTT, in anyone's language, especially those with experience in safeguarding. In fact, leaving is not OTT. It is the recommended action for women and children at risk.

@Cokie3 I respectfully disagree. I also have experience within SS and DV and I don't believe you can know the entire situation from a few posts on Mumsnet. OP recognises his behaviour isn't right and she's recognised she doesn't want to be a frog in boiling water. Sometimes it's about having a rational conversation with someone and getting to the root of what is happening and working through it.

@lapaverde

To the posters pointing out my patronizing tone - yup, I see that now, and that's on me. Still not sure how to move forward as DH wants me to apologize for "the mess I created" and won't engage on his behaviour towards DD. I did say sorry for my tone.

In that case he is definitely being unreasonable and very unpleasant, especially as it sounds like it was a few days ago? If he is consistently like this then yes, I would be questioning the relationship; if it's a one-off then I would think a bit less of him but I wouldn't leave him over it (and I don't think anyone would actually do that, rather than just telling a stranger on the internet to).

YANBU. I’m ashamed to admit to a low time when I scared my toddlers by shrieking at them, completely at the end of my tether. But I knew that, I knew it was wrong, and that it was my problem not theirs.

When he’s not angry I think you need to sit down together and talk about how his temper is aggressive to a toddler who is a quarter of his size, and that his responses are disproportionate to the ‘crime’. She’s not even two yet, she can’t possibly be deliberately pushing his buttons. If he doesn’t get himself under control now, he is going to find the later years very difficult and will end up alienating his own child.

DH and I are quite hotheaded and have been known to yell, we’d both be the first to admit it. But being able to understand and admit to being OTT (our kids are much older now) combined with also having developed coping strategies for stressful situations means we’re all a lot happier.

When you talk to him, I would suggest you both get enrolled in a parenting class or maybe he gets anger management. If he refuses to engage at all or just flings it all back on you I would seriously be considering whether I wanted to stay in a relationship like that.

[quote MaMaD1990]@Cokie3 I respectfully disagree. I also have experience within SS and DV and I don't believe you can know the entire situation from a few posts on Mumsnet. OP recognises his behaviour isn't right and she's recognised she doesn't want to be a frog in boiling water. Sometimes it's about having a rational conversation with someone and getting to the root of what is happening and working through it. [/quote]
If you had read the OP's posts, you will see that she has TRIED to have a rational conversation. He again shouted her down, refused to listen, and instead gaslit her. You cannot have a 'rational conversation' with someone who refuses to engage in a rational conversation.

She has tried to talk to him. He won't budge. He doubled down. I'm wondering if you actually read her posts properly, because there is no point mentioning having a rational conversation. She....tried.....that. Anyone with experience in SS and DV will recognise this as a family 'at risk of harm' and would not suggest having a 'rational conversation' when the woman has A) tried and B) the husband has doubled down.

Also, you mention him shouting a lot at you but this is the first time he has shouted like that at DD.

I think he needs to know that he is frightening to live with, and that even if he thinks you’re overreacting he does not get to police you like that. He needs to do something constructive else you won’t be able to be together - because who wants to be frightened by the man who is supposed to love and care for you above all others?

I divorced my exH over this exact issue and I'm glad I did

I have a 17 month old who is going through the same things as yours and is exhausting and frustrating. Both me and DH had fathers who were very angry and temperamental and this has effected us badly and makes both of us really careful to regulate ourselves. We listen to the book : "the book you wish your parents had read" when we feel wobbly (listened to it a ton now) and it helps so much. Tbh if you can get your DH to listen to it he might realise why he is shouting and angry and what he is passing on to his child more and it might help him.

My DP in total despair a few nights ago picked our DC up to eye level and said through gritted teeth in a growly tone ‘please be quiet now’.

DC obviously cried, I stepped in, two minutes later DC was laughing at DP. DP broke down and apologised for losing control like that.

I get it, it’s sooooo hard when the relentlessness of parenting in lockdown gets to you. BUT the actions afterwards towards you don’t seem right. No parent is perfect and picking flaws in each other will only end in disaster.

@Hardbackwriter I can promise you that if my husband ever clenched his fists at my baby, I would leave him THAT VERY SECOND, and I think 99% of mothers would, too. If your DP clenching his fists at a baby isn't enough for you to leave, to safeguard your baby, then I have no words....

Hmm- now I've read the thread a bit more, listening to a book may not cut it. Getting outside help or even stepping away from the situation may be better calls.

I had a difficult upbringing too, but I hated my mother crying more than my father shouting. She cried frequently and often very desperately. It was truly awful.

I agree that there is no excuse to yell at a child but I also think there is no excuse to cry in front of a child, but many of us do it. Temporarily we lose control of our emotions and put our needs in front of our childrens'.

If your DH has a temper, his children are occasionally going to witness it. So long at he tries and usually succeeds in controlling it and he loves them dearly, then they will have a better upbringing than many.

You are essentially threatening your husband that if he ever loses his temper with your daughter again you will leave him. Do you really mean that? Assuming he is usually a good father, would that be in your child's interest?

Perhaps it is time to ask your husband what he thinks you are doing wrong with your daughter. You don't have to agree with him, but listening to him rather than scolding him (however justifiably) or threatening him might be a good fresh start.

If however you think his explosive temper is a real threat to your daughter or you, you should leave him.

Like pps I find his response that you've "created a mess" worse than the actual shouting. With dc1, I definitely lost my patience sometimes. I just was not used to having this tiny person who I loved more than anything and who screamed at me half the day, for reasons I couldn't always understand. I did more of a swearing under my breath thing though, but yes, I was definitely not Mary Poppins.

I do think your tone could maybe have been interpreted as a bit holier than thou, but look how easy it was; people said that to you on here and you immediately said "oh yeah, maybe". Not "well you created this mess roar" etc.

Anyway, by the time I had dc2, I knew the drill. Much easier.

Look, life is tough for parents at the moment. Especially for you and your husband both working full time. I know how challenging a toddler can be at the best of times.

He probably felt guilty as hell afterwards and upon reflection is chastising himself internally/

Does this happen a lot? If it's the first time, cut him some slack. This doesn't make him an evil bastard.

All those standing in judgement, can you honestly say you never lost your temper with your toddler? I know I have: it's not their fault but they can be trying. Especially now when we're all cooped up inside trying to entertain them whilst holding down demanding jobs.

My partner and I can get shouty sometimes but we are both quite good at jumping in when we see the other getting frustrated. If you see him getting angry, take the child away into another room and give him space to calm down. They usually get over it quickly and can be distracted with something else

Look after each other and look after yourself and baby x

@Cokie3 I have read her posts and my responses are based solely on the information she's given. You don't know that her tone is what has annoyed him (and it would irritate a lot of people). You don't know when this incident happened and he may need time to think things through. My responses may change should she wish to disclose further information but she may not want to, which is fair enough. Its not about minimising behaviour but unless you have the full facts of absolutely everything (which we never will because its hard to do on these forums) you can't, in my opinion, advise someone to leave their partner and uproot their child. Life is very complex and rarely as simple as a post sounds.

@FTEngineerM DP broke down and apologised for losing control like that.

See, that is the difference. OP's husband didn't break down, he didn't apologise for losing control like that, he seemed cold and indifferent and instead of being struck with remorse, he doubled down! That, is the difference here.

Was he holding his clenched fists up at her or clenching them by his side?

[quote MaMaD1990]@Cokie3 I have read her posts and my responses are based solely on the information she's given. You don't know that her tone is what has annoyed him (and it would irritate a lot of people). You don't know when this incident happened and he may need time to think things through. My responses may change should she wish to disclose further information but she may not want to, which is fair enough. Its not about minimising behaviour but unless you have the full facts of absolutely everything (which we never will because its hard to do on these forums) you can't, in my opinion, advise someone to leave their partner and uproot their child. Life is very complex and rarely as simple as a post sounds.[/quote]
@MaMaD1990

You don't know that her tone is what has annoyed him

Er, so, effectively you are saying the old "you made me do it!" Please, please tell me you are joking. Please! You are saying the OP's tone annoyed her husband enough that it justified him approaching a baby with his fists clenched?

So, the OP being patronising meant 'she deserved it', 'she made him lose control and approach baby with clenched fists*?

Please, I beg you, please tell me you are on a wind up. Because no one can seriously say her tone 'made him do it'. Next if he does hit OP or the baby, you will be saying her tone 'made him do it'! We only need the first OP's post to know he approached a baby with fists clenched. What else does one need?

@Cokie3 see you aren't reading properly and making things up to suit your argument. I didn't say she deserved anything, in fact I think I said she needs to tell him he needs to treat her with more respect and possibly put her leaving on the table. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

To all suggesting I talk to him at a calmer time - that's exactly what I did; in the moment I just took DD to the park to let DH cool down, and later approached him in a conciliatory way ('I know toddlers can be frustrating, but...') And he still blew up at me. So I'm left wondering what else I can do, other than threaten to leave (which maybe seems like an overreaction to a one-time event? And which could also be construed as manipulative.)

Yep, you coddled the bully and showed your belly to him as much as you possibly could and he clearly showed, again, that he's a bully.

No it's not an overreaction to tell him, clearly, that you won't accept his temper in your relationship or his parenting and his choice is to either stop, get help, or you'll split.

She's a baby. He made a fist?!

That is so far beyond normal parental stress. His instinct was to make a fist, as if to overcome the impulse to hit out at, his baby.

You saw her face.

Boiling frog might be about right if you've learned to slowly live with the temper he's now revealing.

His defensive reaction is what I take issue with.

There is a world of difference between a person that loses their temper rarely , and is ashamed of themselves as a result and a person that is aggressive frequently and tries to justify themselves by pointing out other's faults.

I’ve not got many memories of my dad as a kid. We get on ok now. But the one thing I do remember is him poking his finger into my nose and slapping me round the face as punishment.

That’s what I remember. No other real childhood memories of him really.

Ask him if that’s how his daughter wants to remember her childhood?