Reasons to have children please

[Lookingforguidance]

Myself and DH both love children and have always wanted them but in the last few months he has been researching a lot about the global impact having them had on the environment and also the fact that there are millions of children in the world who don’t have families. He has now decided that having our own biological ones is unethical when we could adopt. I would love to have one and adopt one.
We’re both looking for reasons to justify having our own (not just for emotional/selfish reasons like to see your own genes passed down/ to experience pregnancy and childbirth/ because it makes you happy etc). I’m really searching for concrete evidence that will convince him we should have just one. Please help. Thank you

My DH and I had this exact same conversation a few months ago (led to a dilemma, made a MN thread on it).

My reason for having children is that they bring value, lessons and unique experiences to my life. I have a vision of what I want my life to be. Not everyone shares this sentiment and that’s ok just don’t have kids.

My reasons specifically to have BIO kids. I did lots of research on adoption forums, spoke to people IRL, and adoption is far from easy. It can be major stress. And what I got from most mums (esp those who had bio and adopted kids) was that although they love love love their adopted kids, the love felt different for their bio kids. One woman said if her adopted kid died, she would feel deep immense pain and would take a long time to move on but she’d be able to. If her bio kid died it would destroy her.

Your DH shouldn’t undermine your wants and desires by asking you to present logical evidence. Parenting is selfish no matter how you go about acquiring your children. He can’t force his beliefs on you to the detriment of your dreams.

@Robbybobtail

I know lots of childless people will disagree but I have 3 siblings, two of us have dc’s and two don’t. The two who don’t (now mid-50’s) both suffer from terrible depression. Myself and my sibling with dc’s don’t and we are generally positive and pragmatic people. I do think it runs in our family and I definitely have “down” periods but I never let it consume me. I think having dc’s gives you a something to strive for, live for. I can’t wallow when I need to put on my happy face for my children and look after them. I can’t imagine a life without them and I wonder if my other siblings had had a family, would they be so miserable now? I feel like part of them must think that when they die there is going to be no one to really grieve for them, nothing left behind and no legacy. They can stay in bed all day if they like because no one is counting on them. I realise people with dc’s suffer from depression too but this is my own experience in my family.

What a shitty post. I'm early 50s and childfree, I've never had any depression or stayed in bed all day because of that fact. I have plenty to strive for and my happy face is genuine not a facade I put on for other people. I don't need a legacy, how pompous. I've lived and am living a good life, you seem to think people can't do that without kids. I hope you're not as insufferably superior to your siblings in real life as you come across in this post.

I love the lighthearted replies. Can only contribute that Teenagers are endlessly annoying, fascinating, amusing. I like them a lot.

all the research (that I’m aware of) says it’s selfish or irresponsible to bring them into the world

imho, it's irresponsible (of societies) to not give women control over their fertility, to not drive child mortality down hard, to have poor provision for personal welfare in old age. Population control isn't an individual decision: it's a social outcome from weak/terrible social policies and planning.

If virtually all women in world had good control over their fertility, no pressure to make babies at a young age, no male partners who want to flaunt their virility... if everyone knew their children would reach adulthood with 99% probability, and if they knew that there would be good social care for them in their old age regardless of their count of living adult relatives, then the global over- population problem would be quickly sorted by people making choices to have smaller families on average. This has happened in China, btw. The moral crime is when people don't have a true choice about family size.

So imho, OP's husband is thinking about this all wrong. It isn't a personal decision at all. Individuals in a society with good welfare provision and low child mortality rates are not responsible for fixing this global problem when they decide about whether to have a child.

There are no real reasons to have children except that you want them. Who has children because they think doing so makes the world a better place?

There are far too many people on the planet despite some posters trying to say otherwise. The UK is already far too overcrowded and will only get worse.

The future for children today is possibly going to be pretty tough. There are already problems with not enough jobs (likely to get much worse because of covid), not enough housing, rents and house prices being ridiculously high. Add in climate change, rising sea levels and likely food and water shortages too.

You also stand far more chance of your marriage/relationship lasting and actually being happy if you choose not to have children

I suppose if you go through life thinking in terms of a balance sheet you will never 'get it'.
Do you ever look out the window and marvel at what we have in the world in life? Flowers, rain, trees, mountains, water from a tap, the love of our partner or family and friends?

If you take everything for granted in life you won't see the enormous privilege it is that we are here and the love we can share, even if materially we have very little.

Love, and love like no other is like the intangible contents of a spiritual teapot of everything we hold dear in life; worth more than all the jewels and money and assets in the world put together.

It makes them get out of bed everyday when they feel like they never want to wake up, it gives them hope when all hope for everything else is lost. It gives a reason to live that fills a premordial instinct that makes no economic or common sense.

I have avoided talk of religion because each and every culture has their own take on that, but the essence of it all is really magical and awe inspiring and beyond comprehension and explanation.

How two people in love can cause a miraculous fusion of energy that fires up a cellular explosion of living material, each with its own little computer programme and software that knits together a whole new independent living organism that is designed to pull on shiny new heartstrings that have never twanged into action in quite the same way before...

I could go on. But there is no point. I am not saying this is the same experience for everyone as there are enough posts on MN that would contradict that .

But when it does happen then it has the capacity in an unspoken and spiritual sense to transform and give meaning to the world, our existence and to life itself.

That has been my experience, and I went through life in my 20s not wanting a child or giving you the same reasons your DH is saying now.

I was in my 30s when this awe inspiring event happened to me and I will never ever take for granted anything in life again.

I have 5 DC now and each one is different and I am enjoying the whole process, the tears and the sweat of bringing them up to be kind and thoughtful little human beings.

It's not easy, but then to me nothing worthwhile in life is necessarily easy. They are also independent beings which I marvel at every day at their differences of outlook and personalities.

At the end of the day, it is the richness and laughter and overflowing sense of peace and love that they bring.

I suppose if you just have a cold balance sheet or an indifferent heart in general, this post will come across as cheesy or patronising or worse.

But hey ho.

@Robbybobtail

I know lots of childless people will disagree but I have 3 siblings, two of us have dc’s and two don’t. The two who don’t (now mid-50’s) both suffer from terrible depression. Myself and my sibling with dc’s don’t and we are generally positive and pragmatic people. I do think it runs in our family and I definitely have “down” periods but I never let it consume me. I think having dc’s gives you a something to strive for, live for. I can’t wallow when I need to put on my happy face for my children and look after them. I can’t imagine a life without them and I wonder if my other siblings had had a family, would they be so miserable now? I feel like part of them must think that when they die there is going to be no one to really grieve for them, nothing left behind and no legacy. They can stay in bed all day if they like because no one is counting on them. I realise people with dc’s suffer from depression too but this is my own experience in my family.

Think about what you're saying here.

Your siblings have terrible depression - you're putting that down to them being childfree, with no evidence at all other than that you and another sibling do have children and don't suffer from depression.

Children are not a cure for depression (or any other ailment) and thinking they might be would be a terrible reason to have them.

I feel like part of them must think that when they die there is going to be no one to really grieve for them, nothing left behind and no legacy.

Well, what does that matter? When you are dead, you are dead. It doesn't matter whether people grieve or not, because you won't know about it. And any people who grieve for you will die themselves sooner or later. Unless you are publicly notable in some way (significant contribution to science/the arts etc. or a particularly notorious criminal) you'll be completely forgotten as soon as everyone who knew you in your lifetime is dead. We all will, whether we have DCs or not.

@Imapotato

Because with everyone living for such a long time now we will need young working people to pay taxes or we’re stuffed. If people stop having children we will be in real trouble in our old age.

We can't just keep increasing the population so that there are more people to pay tax though can we?

Say we needed 5 people to start with it would then be 10, then 20 and so on. The UK is far too overcrowded as it is

@Bitbusyattheminute

Because I didn't want to regret NOT having them. Purely selfish decision. I've enjoyed it more than I thought I would, and after a dry start, developed a whole new social life thanks to them. Hopefully they'll also be decent human beings.

Much better to regret not having a child than regret having one. Many many people regret having children. There are enough posters on here saying that.

More of my friends with children say if they could go back in time they would not have any than say they would do it again. I am talking people with grown up children, often even grandchildren.

There are people who don’t give a shit about the environment and if they want kids, they will keep having kids. These kids then grow up in a household that doesn’t care about the environment. If, and I’m not saying this is true, every household that cared about the environment didn’t have kids, there’d be no children in households that care about the environment. Therefore, we are relying on the younger generation becoming engaged environmental protection through school. Whilst many of the younger generation do get involved at school, schools can only teach so much. If you have a child, biological or adopted, then you can raise the issue even more. Then hopefully in 20 years time, we have a generation even more keen to help the environment. This is our hope but this is also one of the reasons we will likely stop at one and also one of the reasons we likely won’t pursue IVF should we need it.

As for adopted vs biological. Adopted children have usually suffered through some trauma, whether that be the separation from their biological parents at birth or because they’ve had to be removed from the home. I know that people will usually post on a forum when they are having issues but reading the threads on the adoption forum was an eye opener for me.

I'm sorry but he sounds incredibly ignorant about what adoption entails.
Firstly, years ago kids would be up for adotopn due to the stigma of unmarried parents. Thats not the case now so kids who need adopting often come from homes where they have been abused, neglected, removed for their own safety and a large proportion have learning/physical disabilities.
Now, adoption is still an amazing thing to do but you have to be aware that these will be lifelong issues that need support and it will be very very tough at times. It sounds to me like he has this cutesy hippy vision of you rescuing all the world's children and you all living happily ever after. Its not like that. Life isnt like that.

He needs to really research what adoption involves because I agree with others, right now he seems to view it like picking up a puppy.

With regard to why I had my own kids:

I loved my H. I had a primal, compelling urge to have a child that was almost beyond my control. I would have been devastated if I had got to the end of my life having never having had the experience of being a parent. I am well educated, financially stable and we've had two kids so technically have only replaced myself and H in the scheme of things.
Parenting can be hard but its also been the most amazing experience of my life, Ive never known love like it and I dont regret it for an second.
My children are the loveliest, kindest, funny, loving, caring kids and my life would be missing without them.

For those asking I’m on the far end of 27 he’s 33 so I believe this is the exact right time to be discussing it as there may not be too many fertile years left

Just to echo what everyone else has said really: there is one reason to have biological children and that is because you want them.

If you are looking for reasons NOT to have children, you can find literally hundreds.

Ask yourself what your DH is really looking for, here?

(I have biological children; I was ambivalent to be honest but DH really wanted them and it is clear that he is absolutely fulfilled by fatherhood, so no regrets.)

They can be really good fun and company

Err erm eh ooooh mmmmm. Nope can’t think of any at all.

Your husband is quite right. At the same time, I think adoption seems very very challenging and if you don't think you would be up to the job, producing children yourself is way easier. This is why I didn't adopt.

So you can be broke, tired, fat, cranky, messy and lack any privacy.

FFS of course it's not selfish or irresponsible. This whole narrative pisses me off because it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how population growth happens.

We are at a stable level of population in the West. The population boom has already happened. If we stopped having children en masse, there would be serious problems not limited to economic collapse. But the biggest reason not to let population worries stop you having children is that it won't make any difference.

If you especially want to be ethical then have no more than two. But it's really not about how many any individual has, as long as the overall average stays around or below 2. There are plenty of people not having children, our culture can sustain individuals having over 2 by choice. The nations/areas where the average is still over 2 are going through the process of change where better access to contraception, education and medical care is causing the birth rate to reduce. If you want to have an influence on population growth, campaigning or directing your work towards improvements in these areas is likely to have a far greater effect than not having your own child.

Adoption vs biological children is also not like choosing a puppy from a shelter vs a backstreet breeder, or eating up the open crackers before you open a new packet. Creating a family through adoption is such a different thing than creating a new life that they should be considered totally separately. Perhaps you do want to do both, but don't think that they are the same thing. It's all ways of creating a family but that family experience is likely to be different.

This is very good :)

@Blessex

They can be really good fun and company

So can dogs and they are far less work too. They learn toilet training far quicker and earlier than children, they don't talk back to you, they don't cost as much money, you don't have to worry about them taking drugs, getting pregnant, smoking, drinking etc.

@lynsey91 fair point!!!!! I recently got a dog too!

[quote BertieBotts]FFS of course it's not selfish or irresponsible. This whole narrative pisses me off because it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how population growth happens.

We are at a stable level of population in the West. The population boom has already happened. If we stopped having children en masse, there would be serious problems not limited to economic collapse. But the biggest reason not to let population worries stop you having children is that it won't make any difference.

If you especially want to be ethical then have no more than two. But it's really not about how many any individual has, as long as the overall average stays around or below 2. There are plenty of people not having children, our culture can sustain individuals having over 2 by choice. The nations/areas where the average is still over 2 are going through the process of change where better access to contraception, education and medical care is causing the birth rate to reduce. If you want to have an influence on population growth, campaigning or directing your work towards improvements in these areas is likely to have a far greater effect than not having your own child.

Adoption vs biological children is also not like choosing a puppy from a shelter vs a backstreet breeder, or eating up the open crackers before you open a new packet. Creating a family through adoption is such a different thing than creating a new life that they should be considered totally separately. Perhaps you do want to do both, but don't think that they are the same thing. It's all ways of creating a family but that family experience is likely to be different.

This is very good :)

[/quote] But it is selfish. People are only having children because they "want" a child. No one is bringing children into the world because they think they will turn out to be the person who finds a cure for cancer or whatever are they?

In my experience, couples who choose to be childfree discuss it at length whereas by far the majority of couples who choose to have children have little or no discussions about it. They have them just because its the thing to do, or they want one (or more) or, sadly far too often, it is a "accident".

Also if we are hoping that the world is going to be saved by future generations when is this likely to start? I ask because I thought young or youngish people were the ones concerned about the planet. Just look around at all the littering. McDonalds' wrappers thrown out of cars across the country and surely the main users of McDonalds are fairly young?

I lived near a school until 2 years ago. I would see children (juniors) come out of school go to the shop across the road and come out and throw sweet wrappers, crisp packets etc on the pavement often NEXT to where a bin was.

Look at any music festival, again surely attended by mainly young people, and all the rubbish left behind. It's disgusting

Yes, and I really take offence to this idea that only parents are "selfish" and childless people are saints.

I know plenty of childless people who are selfish as fck and dont give a crap about anyone else so there you go. You can be selfish with kids or without!

@AlexisCarringtonColbyDexter

Yes, and I really take offence to this idea that only parents are "selfish" and childless people are saints.

I know plenty of childless people who are selfish as fck and dont give a crap about anyone else so there you go. You can be selfish with kids or without!

Yes of course childfree people can be selfish but don't pretend having children is not selfish because it is. Give me reasons why it is not selfish when it is really about wanting a child and having one often regardless of whether you should be having one or not

Yeah, if you’re looking for reasons then you should not be having any.

@BertieBotts thank you so much for your message. What you said makes so much sense. Myself and DH watched the video you linked and that’s exactly the type of information we were/ he was looking for. The way he explains the figures is so clearly and really makes the world seem less bleak. We had a good chat afterward and he feels more optimistic. I’m sure we’ll discuss more before making any concrete decisions but I wanted to sincerely thank you for sharing this.
You’re right about adoption too. We’ve really only explored the tip of the iceberg when it comes to adopting and it is a whole different story, challenging and perhaps not even possible for us!