To not let DH talk DS out of applying to Durham Uni?

[cruddled]

I grew up local to Durham University but never considered applying back in the late eighties because I had a stereotyped view of it as being 'posh' and filled with 'Oxbridge rejects' from private schools. Whether or not it was true at the time, it was certainly a widespread view. My DH grew up in Yorkshire and had the same negative opinion of it. We were both first-generation university applicants and both ended up at other Russell Group universities in the north of England, then moved to Greater London for work, which is where we met and have lived ever since.

Now our DS1 in year 12 is thinking of putting Durham as one of his UCAS choices and seems quite keen on the idea. DH is less keen and has privately suggested we talk him out of it, but only because of his past prejudice. I disagree. I know there was a very negative story in the news recently because some students certainly did live up to the stereotype (www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/north-east-durham-university-students-19131519), but I'm generous enough to assume they are in the minority and that the university has otherwise moved on a bit.

Please tell me I'm right and that Durham is now at least comparable with other 'top' universities for inclusivity.

I don't think your husband should talk him out of it but the type of university you choose is an important consideration, somewhere like Durham will feel very different to somewhere like Manchester.

FFSA- I’m horrified! Poor you! That’s absolutely not my experience of Durham. How dare they!!

I went to Klute sober once - it was like Shaun of the Dead. Fucking terrifying experience.

I was there, from a council estate in the NE in the very late 90s. The divide wasn't so much state/private but the NE students (and locals) really really got some shit from some of the arseholes there - you had people who would wrinkle their nose in disgust and comment that "oh... you're... NORTHERN" and then walk away.

I remember one seminar when I said something about access to education and I was actually told by one of the really upper class ones on the course that, yes, my views might be right in MY little area... but in the PROPER PARTS OF THE COUNTRY AND GOOD SCHOOLS... and that was allowed to pass unchallenged by staff. Things like that all the time - references to the pit villages where the "men either sleep with their dogs or their sisters depending on how many pints they've had at t'mens club that night"... the fact the quote sticks verbatim in my mind decades later really says how much it impacted me.

Although having said all of that - I loved my time there, loved my college (and I went to Castle so was really bucking the hill/bailey distinction there) and I do still have a few friends I keep in touch with to this day - but I in no way found it easy.

I have to say that now I'm back at uni doing a degree at one of those universities MN recoils from in horror because it's an ex-poly and the quality of the teaching I'm getting (although time has moved on since then) blows my time in Durham way out of the water.

If my kids wanted to apply there I'd support them but only because it would put them in rescuing distance of grandparents if they needed support.

The hills and cobbles are fucking brutal on your legs and ankles though -especially when pissed and as the uni moves gradually further and further up the hill.

Klute!!!!!!!!!!!!

I went back to Durham in 2014 when I was pregnant and we tried to go to klute. Luckily it was shut!!!

[quote KarlKennedysDurianFruit]@Gwenhwyfar people just walking around wearing gowns like it's school uniform. Nonsense. Suits some to perpetuate that stereotype though.[/quote]
She had no reason to lie to me.

Has he been to look around? (can you even do that at the moment?) Because it was going to be one of my choices in 2009, but I ruled it out as I went to an overnight open day visit, staying in Collingwood college, and honestly all the poshos really put me off. However, I ended up at Warwick and found poshos there too 😂
One thing I didn’t like was that Durham had catered accommodation either, not sure if they still do that. That is different to most other unis, and put the price of the accommodation up to a price I couldn’t actually afford. Plus I was a fussy eater. There was one self-catering college back when I looked (Josephine Butler I think?) Just something for him to consider, I really wanted the student living-on-beans-and-pasta life, rather than catered.

On the gowns- these were just for formal occasions. There were never people just wearing gowns like something out of Harry Potter when I was there!

@Twisique

If he has the potential grades for Durham he has them for Oxbridge, suggest Oxford or Cambridge to your DH as an alternative

DS had an offer from Cambridge and was looking at Durham for insurance. While he found Cambridge very down to earth and inclusive of a comp kid he felt very uncomfortable at the offer day at Durham surrounded by loud public school kids showing off. That was his perception and is why he didn't choose it.

Phyz- Sorry but that’s based on a one day visit, so I don’t think can hold much water, and in no way compares to my 3 years at Durham as a comp kid from South Yorkshire.

I went to Bristol in the late 90s - quite a significant rah population there, especially on the course I did. I’m from a comprehensive school. It was pretty eye opening but in a good, fun way. I lived with a girl from Marlborough, but also a two girls from single parent families in poor areas and basically, we were all young women, away from home for the first time, we all got on so well and it was brilliant.
On my course there were a lot of public school types, varying levels of friendliness. I got into the habit of walking back from lectures with one bloke who was also ex grammar school, normal background, and we used to laugh about the pashminas and how one guy would turn up in brogues and a drop top jeep (while he drove an old fiesta). Anyway, I married him and we’ve been together for 24 years now.

@Gwenhwyfar

"I was at Durham 1990 - 1993 - there was definitely a significant public school contingent but it was already starting to become more diverse."

Really? My friend was there around 2000 and it was so full of former public school pupils that she said some of them walked around in their gowns.
Imagine anyone from a normal school wearing their school uniform at university!
One of them told her her accent was 'quaint'.

I knew - through a niche hobby - one of the boys (ok, young men, but he seemed like a boy to me) who walked around in a gown. When he wasn't wearing a gown he walked around in a suit, and he bought himself a linen suit and straw boater to wear in the summer. The first time I met him he commented on how the service was "proper church" (it was a feast day so there was incense).

He wasn't from a public school. He was from a normal school but he was putting on a Peter Wimsey persona because if people are laughing at your persona they're not laughing at you.

My friend who's practically 60 says she was discouraged - at a northern grammar school - from applying to Durham because it's Not For The Likes Of Us. My brother who's 46 had two schoolfriends (midlands comprehensive) who went to Durham and hated it.

Another friend has a son who graduated from Durham a few years ago (she would walk into town past his Hild Bede bedroom window). He went to the local primary school with a high proportion of FSM pupils followed by one of the local comprehensives. As far as I'm aware he enjoyed his time there - but of course he knew the place already.

S1 applied to the Widening Participation programme but knew he wouldn't get on to it when they asked if either parent had been to university!

I went to York, which according to PP has the same sort of reputation, but only ever met one genuinely posh person (spent the after-rehearsal time in the bar explaining to me the horseriders' difference between the Henriettas and the Sharons. I did manage not to laugh but she never came back to that society...)

DH and I were at Durham in the mid to late noughties. We’re both from pretty humble WC-ish backgrounds (I say ish because we were both privately educated - assisted places). We both absolutely loved it. Yes there’s a hefty rah contingent, as there will be at any prestigious red brick uni- but if you choose your college carefully (as the pp whose daughter was miserable in Castle will attest) it makes all the difference. The hill colleges are generally less snobby and elitist. The newer/relocated QC colleges are self catering with brand new en suite halls. It’s a great uni for sport as well and if the nightlife is underwhelming you can always go out in Newcastle.
I’d recommend it to anyone in a heartbeat.

‘He wasn't from a public school. He was from a normal school but he was putting on a Peter Wimsey persona because if people are laughing at your persona they're not laughing at you.”

A lot of us did that sort of thing to fit in with the dominant culture. Where I was you couldn’t ignore it, it was the water you swam in.

And I was only 19....

Please don’t talk him out of it.

It’s a stunning city and a fantastic uni- if your DS goes there his job prospects will be excellent.

I have several friends who went there; they absolutely loved it and they’ve all gone on to stellar careers eg barristers and broadsheet journalists. It’s a great institution and one I’d be very happy for my own DS to go to.

God the class issues on MN do my head in.
I have friends from Nigeria who both sent their dc to Durham. The only criteria they looked at was, "is it a good university"? they couldn't care less about public schools, posh accents etc. They're black, had accents and had a blast. You'd think it would be ten times worse for them but noooo|! its the white British students from state schools that can't relate to them, they can't fit for all the rah's!
You're more alike than you will ever think. So much reverse snobbery, so much prejudice, so many stereotypes! for goodness sake, go there, mingle, diversity is not just about understanding the lower classes its also about understanding and mingling with the upper classes too.

Teach your dc to hold their heads up high, they've earned their place.
If you act like you have a chip on your shoulder then don't be surprised if you can't fit in. Just stop all the 'rah' nonsense, it makes you all sound so silly.

I’m sorry but that’s rubbish.

The problem with the dominant “rahs” is that they constantly and explicitly state their superiority and demand that others accept it.

I’m 50 now so I would just laugh, but as an insecure 19 year old it’s different. It’s a rotten culture in those Bailey colleges. Infantile, selfish and obsessed with money and status.

My SIL & DN both attended and loved it. SIL remained in Durham because she loved the city so much.

Let him apply. Eldest did, got an interview and was over the moon. Went for interview & knew it wasn't for him. But that was his decision. He's never regretted it, but was glad he got the chance to know they wNted him.

Your DS needs to think about whether he wants to go to a college style uni in a small city, whether the course is suitable for him / accredited as necessary, and if the grades are achievable.

I was a post grad there in the late 80s, so didn’t do any of the college stuff, although Castle was the bar to go to for cheap drinks (entirely due to the poor maths skills of the girls behind the bar) and a glimpse at how the other half live.

Klute - blast from the past. What a dive. There’s a Cummings link there too.

I exactly agree with alphasox ' s post.

I went to Durham in the 70s—yes I am that old—and there were definitely a lot of posh folk—I went to a state grammar and am from a working class family—but there were many others from diverse backgrounds. The academic standards were very good. I would second the comments of others that the hill colleges are less posh and more diverse. I was at St Mary’s.

Apologies, I haven’t read the full thread but had a DC that graduated from Durham in the last few years.

IMO, one of the reasons that Durham has kept this ‘posh’ reputation above other unis is the exorbitant cost of first year accommodation. While most unis have a range of accommodation options to cater for different budgets, in Durham the university runs a monopoly with all colleges (except for the few self catering rooms) charging a flat fee for a single catered room. When mine was there, this was ~£6k but a quick google tells you a room in a Durham college will set you back around £8k a year. That’s just not affordable for students from ‘all walks of life’. While my dc had a lovely group of friends from across the country, they all came from staunchly middle class backgrounds.

This isn’t a reason in itself to not apply, but certainly goes a long way in explaining why demographics haven’t shifted in the way they have for many top universities IMO.

Love that university choice leads to discussion on klute. I still have nightmares that I am stuck to the floor and can’t leave!

In addition to all the things mentioned, how will he find living in a city with about half an hour earlier darkness at this time of year? Or does he complain about cold?

Waves at @Ilikeviognier and @Latenightreader as fellow late 90s trevs folk...

I have worked in a Russell group university for most of the time since graduation. I know the “we’re obsessed by class” thing gets thrown around but Durham’s class issues are either “different” either because they are or evident (more possibly) as the result of a big university in (quite literally, it’s not on a separate campus), a small town, that town itself being at the heart of a traditional industry, and and a noticeable accent difference.