Do I have a right to be angry about this? (Trans related)

[Nc109283485]

Nc for obvious reasons. This is a very personal issue to me which I am understandably sensitive about, so this may be why I feel this way. I am perfectly happy to be told I AMBU! I believe trans people deserve love and respect and a happy life just like everyone else. So why did this concern and anger me?

I have a condition called vaginismus which has been very traumatic and caused me lots of grief over my life. In my eyes it is a very personal and female problem. (Look if up if you're not sure what it is).

I have tried to join a support group on a social media platform to really get to the bottom of it and sort it out. I wont say which one as dont want to 'out' either myself or the group involved. My request was pending and a message sent. I assumed this was to confirm I definitely suffer from this condition and to make sure I wasn't some strange pervert, but no! The administrator messaged me to say that before I was accepted I would have to answer a 'test question' as this is a gender inclusive group. Will I be addressing group members as 'ladies, men or everyone'. The tone felt quite aggressive and if I did not pass this test I would not be admitted.

My first thought was are men allowed to enter this group? Do I really have to speak about my vagina in front of 'everyone'? Why not say hello ladies (and the occasional transman who currently has issues with their vagina) no I have to address everyone? Wtf?

I honestly don't know what to think right now but this group clearly isn't for me. But maybe I just need some re-education?

Enough! Too much of a merail!

You're right. I'm not fulfilling my New Year resolution not to argue with individuals personally convinced of their unevidenced quasi-religious beliefs. In a variety of spheres. That way madness lies.

How is that detail helpful?

In case they found a body, in the same way as a tattoo on their backside or whatever would help identify a body.

No, the option you mention isn't "just as clear"

Would you not know what male who looks like X Y and Z and has a vagina meant? Why is that any less descriptive than female who looks like X Y and Z but won't identify with being a female at all?

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

I cannot imagine doing that to someone I cared about

I can't imagine using deliberately hurtful language about/towards my loved one when there are other options that are just as clear.

Firstly, it is not as clear.

A 5'4" 19 year old female who identifies as a man, binds her breasts and has facial hair from taking testosterone, would be clear.

A 5'4" 19yo male with flattened breasts and a vagina is not clear.

Secondly, the kindness comes in more easily if the police know what they are dealing with. For the sake of kindness and effectiveness, you'd add on to the description that to win the person's trust you must mostly treat her as a man: call her by the man's name she has chosen, use male pronouns, pretend not to know/notice she is a female unless absolutely essential for say searches, medical treatment or restraint and even then be sensitive to her feelings about her identification as a man.

Surely that would lead to the best outcomes for the young person, assuming the police officers are trained in how to deal sensitively with a female who identifies as a man?

Enough! Too much of a merail!

You're right.

When I bring it back to the topic of the thread im accused of not talking about the wider issues, I talk about the wider issues and now I'm merailing hilarious.

Would you not know what male who looks like X Y and Z and has a vagina meant?

No, because it's literally nonsensical.

A 5'4" 19 year old female who identifies as a man, binds her breasts and has facial hair from taking testosterone, would be clear.

A 5'4" 19yo male with flattened breasts and a vagina is not clear.

Secondly, the kindness comes in more easily if the police know what they are dealing with. For the sake of kindness and effectiveness, you'd add on to the description that to win the person's trust you must mostly treat her as a man: call her by the man's name she has chosen, use male pronouns, pretend not to know/notice she is a female unless absolutely essential for say searches, medical treatment or restraint and even then be sensitive to her feelings about her identification as a man.

Surely that would lead to the best outcomes for the young person, assuming the police officers are trained in how to deal sensitively with a female who identifies as a man?

If they are trained then saying a man who has a vagina is quicker than the whole speech you just came out with surely?

If they aren't trained then saying 'male' right off tells them to use male pronouns etc. While they look for the person with the description/photo provided.

No, because it's literally nonsensical.

You wouldn't automatically think 'transman' or 'woman who thinks they are male' or whatever else you wish to call them? I'm quite shocked that you wouldn't understand what was meant given your strong opinions on trans issues.

I might. Not everyone would. And it's still literally incorrect. A "trans man" is female. People probably shouldn't give the police incorrect information about sex based on their personal ideology. As pp said, tell them the female person considers themselves male, their name, about what pronouns they answer to etc. But stop trying to force your personal belief system on everyone else.

And now I'm done with you, and am going to scroll when I next see your posts, because responding to this much irrationality is tiring.

And now I'm done with you, and am going to scroll when I next see your posts, because responding to this much irrationality is tiring.

Of course you are. You can't answer my points or questions, while accusing me of doing just that (while failing to provide examples) you've contracticted yourself, and now you have been hypocritical and don't like it being pointed out.

Been interesting chatting to you for sure

OK. Then we are back to TWAW.

So.... Lemon what is a woman?

Or, if you prefer, what is a man?

@CuriousaboutSamphire

OK. Then we are back to TWAW.

So.... Lemon what is a woman?

Or, if you prefer, what is a man?

Curious - I think the person with the skeletal structure on the right is a man but then im a terrible old TERF who thinks biology matters and people cant change sex

OK. Then we are back to TWAW.

Really, what else is there to back it up other than magical thinking and mantras?

Yep! Even in death....sex is immutable!

What if they found a murder victim's skeleton, I wonder, who had been reported as the wrong sex?

So....Lemonwhat is a woman?

An adult, human female.

I totally agree.

What makes someone an adult human female?

Vagina? Hormones? A womb? DNA? Lived experience?

All of those things mean that some women will be discluded as women.

Should we throw some women out of womanhood just because that could mean including transwomen?

I can see some posters have said pelvic bone. There has been some groundbreaking surgeries (not for trans issues as far as I'm aware yet although I do know that there are various implants etc available) for replacement pelvic bones. As medicine develops, and these surgeries become more advanced, we are probably only a few years off being able to replace them in the cases of trans people.

Then what will it be?

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

I can see some posters have said pelvic bone. There has been some groundbreaking surgeries (not for trans issues as far as I'm aware yet although I do know that there are various implants etc available) for replacement pelvic bones. As medicine develops, and these surgeries become more advanced, we are probably only a few years off being able to replace them in the cases of trans people.

Then what will it be?

I have no words for you. All the words that went through my mind were names of doctors in the second world war on the losing side. Wanting to do this stuff to people because they don't conform to gender stereotypes is appalling. Let people who identify as trans wear a dress or DMs and don't give them a hard time for liking sparkles or spanners. Do not wish for them to have bones ripped out!

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

So....Lemonwhat is a woman?

An adult, human female.

I totally agree.

What makes someone an adult human female?

Vagina? Hormones? A womb? DNA? Lived experience?

All of those things mean that some women will be discluded as women.

Should we throw some women out of womanhood just because that could mean including transwomen?

DNA?? Really?? You really think that there are adult human females who do not have female DNA??

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

I can see some posters have said pelvic bone. There has been some groundbreaking surgeries (not for trans issues as far as I'm aware yet although I do know that there are various implants etc available) for replacement pelvic bones. As medicine develops, and these surgeries become more advanced, we are probably only a few years off being able to replace them in the cases of trans people.

Then what will it be?

I think this is the point at which this thread officially "jumped the shark."

Pelvic bone transplants!?!?! To what end? More womanly hips? A more boyish silhouette? To give you "passing privilege" post mortem on the off chance that future archaeologists examine your bones?

This is a real WTAF moment.

Do not wish for them to have bones ripped out!

I wish that every person in the world was happy in their body and that nobody felt the need to have surgery to change any aspect of themselves at all.

I said that is that this is on the horizon, and some people will have this surgery, and asked if they do have this surgery will they then be fully accepted as female?

Please don't put words in my mouth and say I wish for people to have bones ripped out.

Let people who identify as trans wear a dress or DMs and don't give them a hard time for liking sparkles or spanners.

I don't give trans people a hard time at all. I want them to be able to have a space to talk and be themselves comfortably, even if they haven't had surgery, which was my original point on this thread.

You really think that there are adult human females who do not have female DNA??

There are some women who have male DNA in their brains, I would have to go and refresh my memory about the exact reasons and why, but I know it does happen. Yes.

Pelvic bone transplants!?!?! To what end? More womanly hips? A more boyish silhouette? To give you "passing privilege" post mortem on the off chance that future archaeologists examine your bones?

I'm not saying I agree with the surgery, but, undoubtedly there will be people who have it when it is more widely available. Will the people who have this surgery then be accepted as female?

Will the people who have this surgery then be accepted as female?

Well, no, because it's just yet another extremely invasive, downright dangerous and unnecessary cosmetic procedure in a long list of cosmetic procedures which don't in any way change the fact that it's impossible to change sex.

What would make for a better society? Encouraging people with bodily dysmorphia to undergo ever more extensive surgery in pursuit of a delusion (an actual sex change as opposed to creating a simulacrum of the externally visible features of the opposite sex) that can never be realised?

Or encouraging a society where trans people could be comfortable and accepted as trans people? And everyone got treated fairly - no discrimination for jobs or housing for trans people, an acceptance that there are situations where biological sex matters more than gender identity (eg women's sport)?

Should we throw some women out of womanhood just because that could mean including transwomen?

How about we just don't change the definition we have had for thousands of years up until now? After all, it's the one that has been used to discriminate and abuse women. Nobody actually has any difficulty in identifying what a woman is except for in a very few cases of intersex conditions. Why is there any need to change it at all?

Sorry Erish that was it comes back to TWAW - the cant, the ideology. That's all Lemon has left... as her brain DNA shows!

Lemon that's physically impossible without there having been a catastrophic brain injury in both a man and a woman with intermingled brain tissue. Or michrochimerism... a well researched phenomenon which can only happen to females who have gestated a male baby. And that doesn't mean the woman becomes a man. Nor could it happen to a man!

Sorry Erish that was it comes back to TWAW - the cant, the ideology.

Always just the lame gotchas. The level of the argument is never high. I've never got why I'm supposed to unquestioningly accept a man's assertion that he's actually a woman. Based on what? Stereotypes?