Do I have a right to be angry about this? (Trans related)

[Nc109283485]

Nc for obvious reasons. This is a very personal issue to me which I am understandably sensitive about, so this may be why I feel this way. I am perfectly happy to be told I AMBU! I believe trans people deserve love and respect and a happy life just like everyone else. So why did this concern and anger me?

I have a condition called vaginismus which has been very traumatic and caused me lots of grief over my life. In my eyes it is a very personal and female problem. (Look if up if you're not sure what it is).

I have tried to join a support group on a social media platform to really get to the bottom of it and sort it out. I wont say which one as dont want to 'out' either myself or the group involved. My request was pending and a message sent. I assumed this was to confirm I definitely suffer from this condition and to make sure I wasn't some strange pervert, but no! The administrator messaged me to say that before I was accepted I would have to answer a 'test question' as this is a gender inclusive group. Will I be addressing group members as 'ladies, men or everyone'. The tone felt quite aggressive and if I did not pass this test I would not be admitted.

My first thought was are men allowed to enter this group? Do I really have to speak about my vagina in front of 'everyone'? Why not say hello ladies (and the occasional transman who currently has issues with their vagina) no I have to address everyone? Wtf?

I honestly don't know what to think right now but this group clearly isn't for me. But maybe I just need some re-education?

If you think this is where it would have begun and ended, I think you are kidding yourself.

The truth is we have no idea. The op didn't ask any further.

To make sure NO female is put in a position where this abuse, and it is abuse, can happen due to either internal or external pressure to allow it, that is where safeguarding has to be clear! Everytime.

Again, this would be for the people in charge of safeguarding to deal with. Have trans men/women on standby and pay a callout fee each time they are needed? get a full body scanner put in each prison. I don't know the answer, but there needs to be one, and there will be one.

Sorry? Where was this in OP’s posts. I really must have missed it.

It wasn't.

I clicked join on the Facebook group and that was the message sent.

Unless the ops message was wildly different to mine, or it was a different group that I clicked on it really isn't an aggressive message.

@Godimabitch

I think it's not the group for you and they didn't word it well which make me think it's a regular point of contention and I wouldn't want that in any group.

Being in a pregnancy group where we discuss our vaginas and boobs alot, I would be comfortable with a trans man being in the group if they were pre-op and pregnant as they have the same genitals and issues. But I wouldn't be comfortable with trans or cis men in the group because they're not discussing or experiencing the same issues. I wouldn't be comfortable with non pregnant women either tbh. I guess it's a participant vs spectator issue.

So I think, anyone in a group about a particular vaginal issue should be a sufferer of that vaginal issue, if they are, their gender or sexual orientation would be irrelevant to me.

I wouldn't mind being in a group of people who have had an issue in the past or who might have an issue in the future. I would object to being in a group with someone physically unable to have ever (had) that issue.

@Orf1abc

I am also aware that this does not make me inclusive and I don't like that feeling.

Then make a change to be more inclusive. Not difficult is it? You're making an issue about nothing.

(And you know you're not going to get a balance of views on MN. Anything with trans in the title draws in the nasties.)

Why is it always women who have to make the compromises?

SunsetSenora not being snarky, but using 'cis' women is considered offensive on MN (and other places online I'm sure, but definitely MN).

It wasn't.

I clicked join on the Facebook group and that was the message sent.

Unless the ops message was wildly different to mine, or it was a different group that I clicked on it really isn't an aggressive message.

Ok. If it was the same group then it is poorly worded for the first message, but hey ho.

Did it explain just who was included? Males for instance?

Did it explain just who was included? Males for instance?

No it didn't.

I didn't actually join the group so I couldn't tell you who is included in it, what the posts are like, or about or language used.

Have trans men/women on standby and pay a callout fee each time they are needed? get a full body scanner put in each prison. I don't know the answer, but there needs to be one,

Some reasonable ideas. But again, maybe not realistic in many instances. Particularly small regional centres. Is there something wrong about a policy that maintains that same sex search same sex when time is a priority or those additional solutions are not available due to budget etc.

I acknowledge you have said you are not an expert and are happy to allow ‘experts’ to set the policy. However, do you see how organisations and government departments have had lobby groups and advisory staff that only allow for trans people to be prioritized? Particularly with women’s officers roles and boards being taken by males not females.

Will you stand up after these policies have been announced, or acknowledge that groups that can advocate purely for females should be included on the expert committee. Because they are not necessarily getting included. And it is too late after the policy is set or at least it takes years to roll back and by then women will be harmed. As we saw with the failure in safeguarding women’s prisoners.

Will you stand up after these policies have been announced,

Sorry. That should be ‘Will you stand up after these policies have been announced, or stand up and insist that groups ...’.

Got that messed up.

Is there something wrong about a policy that maintains that same sex search same sex when time is a priority or those additional solutions are not available due to budget etc.

Trans prisoners would make up a tiny percentage of prisoners. There should be space made in the budget to accommodate them being searched with dignity, for all parties. That should be a pretty high priority.

Without being too outing my trans loved one was getting a higher priority that others in a few regards. I did speak out about it and was part of helping set policies in my area for the benefit of everyone, not just my loved one. Although it has now been overridden by others who are in the position my trans loved one was in. So yes, when I see preferential treatment rather than equal treatment, I do speak out about it.

I'm not going to lie, at the moment I'm not going to actively seek to get involved in these issues as we, as a family have a lot going on and I don't have the time nor energy (nor the health) but when things settle i will become actively involved again.

Trans prisoners would make up a tiny percentage of prisoners. There should be space made in the budget to accommodate them being searched with dignity, for all parties. That should be a pretty high priority.

So you are saying a transwoman should not be searched by a male?

The reality is that I doubt most police stations would ever have the budget for extra provision. Hence the need for a realistic compromise that doesn’t compromise on a female officer’s safeguarding.

What I am saying is that I believe this is one of those times a female officer’s safety take precedence. That is what should not be compromised.

I think that if you are firstly aware of what is actually happening vs what you might like to happen in the case of equality and fairness, that is a start. I, myself, as someone with a keen interest in industrial relations find the moves to remove equality provisions very concerning. And that people naively think that they are no longer needed just as concerning. If only!!! However, this move to also make issues less visible and sometimes downright obfuscated through language usage is also an issue. Accuracy is needed more than ever and it can be done. But the aggressively dictated language change is not the way. I know you think it is and you brought up adopted parents etc. but there are significant differences. And this issue covers far more issues.

Sadly, I would think if you discussed your thoughts on solutions/ compromises no matter how viable or realistic outside of MN, you would be deemed problematic.

But maybe you already know this.

The trouble with policies is that it includes the people you know and love and are harmless,.but it would also include thise who are abusing the loophole ajd who are not so nice.

For every very fragile friend who can get taken n to one side while someone agrees to search them, there's a tiffany Scott one of Scotland most dangerous prisoners who insists only female officers search then and who has been known to view andrip out of their own arm at spit the blood in staffs faces.

Thankfully they haven't yet been placed in a womans prison but if you look at Heather Mason on you tube she what explained what is happening in us and Canada prisons.

The things to remember are that safguarding and policies aren't personal. We need to stop seeing them as a deliverate attempt to prevent people you know from doing what you feel they should be avke to do because you know them ajd care about them and know they wouldn't harm anyone. They are there to protect everyone and will be in place long after your loved ones ever needed them

We do have to ask, if perceived "rights" require removing safguarding in order to obtain them, should anyone have those particular rights.

Remember it's not a personal attack. Equally policies don't exist to validate identities thats not their purpose.

They are to keep people safe and to avoid putting people into positions they shouldn't be in.

And prisons and healthcare is massively underfunded.

If there's not money fir adequate medical care and san pro and education in prison then where is the money for these groups of people who will sit around and decide which person to put where coming from?

And again you have the same issue i spoke of previously, if you have a job that allows people to work outside safguardung frame works ,.what people will that attract

In Scotland one member of staff involved in the trans prison policy was found to be extremely unsavoury

And remember in Scotland we already have a vocal trans rights campaigner who wants to get elected as a SNP member of the Scottish government. Despite admitting they lied on their application when they got their job as a women’s refuge manager which was a job stating female only. This person doesn’t have a GRC and constantly states no women are compromised by them being a transwoman running a women’s refuge. Yet we hear plenty of stories of women elsewhere going homeless and on the street rather than to use refuges with either transwomen staff or allowing transwomen inside a female safe space. How is this not harming vulnerable women who need to heal away from males? Why are other women giving away the rights of these women? Is it because they feel they know better than these women and these women should just suck it up? Because those deciding on behalf of all women have a lovely transperson in their life and they base their opinions on them and not on the stories from women who have been forced to stay in these accommodations in a shared room with a male who identifies as a women, yet masturbates in the shared room when that female is trying to sleep. And watches porn. These stories are becoming more common.

When this person in Scotland who is a member of the SNP communicates on twitter, they are misogynistic and their attitude is very clearly disrespectful of women. And yet, is enabled and encouraged by other members.

No, this has already a problem. It is only now though that females are catching on. It doesn’t help that in the countries that are lauded as being best examples, the legislation often was snuck in, such as in Ireland and only now do people understand the conflicts.

Its harmful to trans people too.

I mean even if you don't care about women and think they come secind to trans people then you still have to think about what harm those trans people can come to surely.

If safeguarding can't be followed how long does anyone think it will be before something terrible happens?

A transman assaulted by prison staff? I mean come on, a man volunteering to search a biological female? Red flag right there.

2 males chaperoning a biological female? Again red flag

Not to mention the potential for mix ups with drugs etc potentially fatal

Would they pregnancy test a transman in hospital? What if a male member of staff assaulted a transman in prison resulting in pregnancy and it doesn't occur to anyone to pregnancy test a man?

We are apparently the bad guys but most the suggestions place trans people in direct harm which should matter even if women don't

Yes. The transman who lost their pregnancy because no one knew they were female was so sad. So to that high profile US case where doctors didn’t ask that question and in no medical records did it state that the person was female. It took months and months of invasive tests and the person getting very poorly before someone realised what that person was not telling them. They were actually female not male. And if they were upfront the tests would have immediately been assessed against female scales and the diagnosis was very quick. All because medical records were changed (as allowed by law) and the transman would not disclose their female status. And almost died.

Any job that works with money fir instance will have tight restrictions around it because it will naturally attract those who think they can be the one to get away with stealing. Do the regulations cause problems sometimes? Sure, I mean we've all had to come back.later to see the manager or had to leave a customer waiting. But equally if I've not been in the safe , done regular till checks , kept receipts and followed the rules I cant be accused of stealing and im not the one sat at home suspended pending investigation.

We really need to stop viewing things as a personal attack. That kind of paranoia isn't healthy and again not something I would feel was kind to encourage in someone I claimed to care about.

We really need to stop viewing things as a personal attack. That kind of paranoia isn't healthy and again not something I would feel was kind to encourage in someone I claimed to care about.

YY. It's not personal. It's not because they're transgender. It's because they are male and women need to make the distinction when it matters to us. Or it's because we do need our own language to talk about our own issues and rights which are on the grounds of our sex.

Can you imagine if teachers decided that the rule that meant they weren't allowed to be alone in a classroom with a student with the door shut was making them feel that they were being accused of being dangerous so therefore because they are nice ajd trust worthy we wouldn't do anything and you should let us decide if we shut the door or not.

We really need to take gender and identity etc out the equation and look at the concrete facts if whats being asked. Akd that is, do we keep safgurading as ot stands or do we remove a layer place, multiple people at risk of harm or accusations and by default increase the risk of hiring those who shouldn't be hired in the first place.

Its also known that predators will be the nicest kindest person you have ever met. They will be the last person had ever expect to have abused someone a staff member thats been there years who everyone knows and respects it won't be the shifty looking one that the boss says to keep an eye on amd dont let them go anywhere alone.. Time and time again we are "shocked" at things that happen but they happen because we ignore the basics .we let personal experiences and feelings get in the way of what we need to be doing.

Decent people will not put themselves or want to put themselves in the position where they could be accused of anything. Anyone questioning why a rule is there is the reason the rule is there in the first place

People on this thread have refused to acknowledge that the op wanting to go onto a trans inclusive group and change it is discriminatory towards trans people though. THAT is the big lie isn't it!?

OP wanted to find a support group for a female medical issue. She was put off by the initial greeting and came here asking if she had any right to be angry at the confrontation sh efelt she had met.

• she tried to change nothing
• she removed herself

How the hel is that wanting to change anything or being in any way discriminatory?

As I said, too much twisting!

But the narrative is not yours Lemon you don't get to change OPs lived reality - not even to make your own point!

Anyone questioning why a rule is there is the reason the rule is there in the first place
Exactly. The list of councillors and other people who have proactively pushed for unisex facilities, dismantling sex-based safeguarding etc under the guise of them fighting for trans rights is already depressingly long.

Its also known that predators will be the nicest kindest person you have ever met. They will be the last person had ever expect to have abused someone a staff member thats been there years who everyone knows and respects it won't be the shifty looking one that the boss says to keep an eye on amd dont let them go anywhere alone.. Time and time again we are "shocked" at things that happen but they happen because we ignore the basics .we let personal experiences and feelings get in the way of what we need to be doing.

Decent people will not put themselves or want to put themselves in the position where they could be accused of anything. Anyone questioning why a rule is there is the reason the rule is there in the first place

Yes, this. People wanting to bypass or dismantle safeguarding, or ignore boundaries = red flag for me.

Whatwouldscullydo I have already answered your points, at length.

Winesalot there are deeply problematic people in all jobs, people lie, people make others uncomfortable, its just how the world is. You can tell me about individual trans people who have caused problems, and then I could give you 50 more instances of trans people who are doing some good in the world.

A tiny percentage of women lie about being raped. It is stated over and over on here that the tiny percentage of women shouldn't be seen as representative of the majority, which I agree with. But when a tiny percentage of trans people do something wrong they are suddenly representative of the whole community and how the system should work.

As I said, too much twisting!

I haven't twisted, many many posters have said the group should change its language. The op also made a suggestion of 'better' wording. The op did want to change it, she didn't try to change it, nor did I say she tried to change it. Stop trying to twist my words.

Yes you answered them. Ajd indicated that yes indeed safguarding should have layers removed ti enable trans prisoners/patients to be searched according to identity if they chose.

I'm now highlighting how dangerous that is ajdnyiu refuse to acknowledge male on female violence and insist the risk is equal across the board therefore it doesn't matter if that layer is removed ..you are wrong

Probably a good opportunity to leave this here.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

It most certainly is NOT the same old 10 or so examples... it is a massive issue and this list is constantly growing.