Do I have a right to be angry about this? (Trans related)

[Nc109283485]

Nc for obvious reasons. This is a very personal issue to me which I am understandably sensitive about, so this may be why I feel this way. I am perfectly happy to be told I AMBU! I believe trans people deserve love and respect and a happy life just like everyone else. So why did this concern and anger me?

I have a condition called vaginismus which has been very traumatic and caused me lots of grief over my life. In my eyes it is a very personal and female problem. (Look if up if you're not sure what it is).

I have tried to join a support group on a social media platform to really get to the bottom of it and sort it out. I wont say which one as dont want to 'out' either myself or the group involved. My request was pending and a message sent. I assumed this was to confirm I definitely suffer from this condition and to make sure I wasn't some strange pervert, but no! The administrator messaged me to say that before I was accepted I would have to answer a 'test question' as this is a gender inclusive group. Will I be addressing group members as 'ladies, men or everyone'. The tone felt quite aggressive and if I did not pass this test I would not be admitted.

My first thought was are men allowed to enter this group? Do I really have to speak about my vagina in front of 'everyone'? Why not say hello ladies (and the occasional transman who currently has issues with their vagina) no I have to address everyone? Wtf?

I honestly don't know what to think right now but this group clearly isn't for me. But maybe I just need some re-education?

@wildraisins, no, men do not have vaginas, I will not pretend otherwise.

I will respect anyone and give them the pronouns they prefer, why would anyone be intenionally cruel? but I will not pretend or believe that any man has a vagina.

Yanbu op

Female healthcare is dire at the best of times. Like hell would I refuse to acknowledge reality. If women can't talk about female reproductive health or even have anyone recognise its only women certain things happen to then we have no sodding hope.

I love the long winded explanations. They show just how complicated this mangled language is and how no one has the foggiest idea what they are talking about and that cant define a single term, rendering it all meaningless. Its most helpful.

@Orf1abc

I am also aware that this does not make me inclusive and I don't like that feeling.

Then make a change to be more inclusive. Not difficult is it? You're making an issue about nothing.

(And you know you're not going to get a balance of views on MN. Anything with trans in the title draws in the nasties.)

A female wanting to feel safe in a group where they are discussing female issues is not 'nothing'. How ignorant and heartless to say it is.

Yes, it draws out the nasties on BOTH sides.

It's not just you, seeing loads of this on Facebook at the moment. A lot of the group's I was in (and subsequently left) refer to 'people with a uterus' and other stupid ways of saying women 🙄

[quote thebabessavedme]@wildraisins, no, men do not have vaginas, I will not pretend otherwise.

I will respect anyone and give them the pronouns they prefer, why would anyone be intenionally cruel? but I will not pretend or believe that any man has a vagina.[/quote]
^exactly this.

Once upon a time, female people were looked on as women: woman=female. Women were treated in a certain way with certain privileges and disadvantages. Then some men decided they wanted to be women too and society decided that they could be. So they demanded that they should have the same privileges that females have as well. Not the disadvantages obviously. This is where female no longer equates to 'woman' because they now refer to different groups of people. 'Woman' now means 'anyone who feels like a woman' (whatever that means), rather than someone with a female body. Unfortunately, those men then demanded that female=woman still, and asked that females now be only known as women.

Personally, I think people who believe this belong with the flat earthers. Denying reality doesn't make it true.

Do words really not have any meaning any more?

On this thread alone I’ve seen transmen, trans men, trans male, FTM etc to describe someone who may be in need of vaginismus support. In many of the posts it seems that people are using ‘trans male’ to mean a biological female and ‘trans female’ to mean an actual XY man who identifies as a girly feminine woman. (Tying myself in knots here because apparently those words don’t really mean what I think they mean). I’m so confused.

There are so many variations on the way we describe non-CIS people, and apparently as soon as we accept on of them, they decide they don’t like it and want to be referred to as something else, and yet we’re not allowed to keep any of the words that mean anything to us?

I was under the impression that a trans man (or transman) was born a girl, but that a ‘trans male’ would be born a boy. And yet several posts on here seem to be saying that a trans male is actually someone with a vagina? Or do they mean a ‘pocket’/neo-vagina? So men have vaginas. Women have penises. So far, so stupid. But it seems to have crept into acceptance. Do male and female not mean anything any more either?

It’s so fucked up.

They’ve taken ‘woman’ and graciously given us ‘cis woman’ instead and now apparently female doesn’t mean anything either.

This is why we don’t give an inch. Because it’s never enough.

It appears you believe that you are a woman because you were born with female genitalia and XX chromosomes. You feel you have a sex identity and no gender identity. Nobody is saying that is wrong or you can't believe that. It's fine.

Wtf have I just read?

@MarkRuffaloCrumble

It appears you believe that you are a woman because you were born with female genitalia and XX chromosomes. You feel you have a sex identity and no gender identity. Nobody is saying that is wrong or you can't believe that. It's fine.

Wtf have I just read?

You can't believe that

Eh... What is there to believe or not believe?! It's literally the definition of being a bloody woman ffs. It's not a belief. I'm a woman because biologically I'm female 🤦

YANBU @Nc109283485 Only natal women have vaginas.

I am also aware that this does not make me inclusive

But inclusive of whom? Natal women - you're not excluding them. And this includes transmen, so it's not transphobic, if that is what you're worried about.

Women have fought for centuries and are still fighting for proper medical treatment for women's bodies, for the right to use clear language to discuss their bodily experiences, for the right to proper and appropriate medical treatment.

As anyone with endometriosis or who's had a gynaecological mesh inserted, or any number of any of the issues that mostly affect specifically women, will say, we still don't have appropriate medical treatment for our bodies. See Caroline Criado-Perez's book Invisible Women.

Anyone removing your capacity to speak about your lived experience as a female body is the one being exclusive. Not you.

OP YADNBU .

I’ve had life long vagina and vulva issues, to the point it’s diagnosed as some sort of developmental disorder/abnormality .

The NHS couldn’t give a shit - or actively make it worse at times - and most of the advice online seems to be tailored to men . Eg when trying to find support for needing vaginal dilators . Most of the advice online referred to transwomen .

It’s so, so frustrating .

I’ve found the same with FB groups .

The group should be inclusive of transmen.

An abrupt 'joining question' isn't the best way to ensure that, though.

@Derbee

but yes, some men do have vaginas and may suffer from the same condition

This is the most fucking ridiculous thing I think I’ve ever had the misfortune of reading. If it wasn’t so ridiculously infuriating, it would almost be funny

The poster will have meant trans men. As in born female. So could quite easily suffer from the same condition.

The poster will have meant trans men.

If that is what they meant, they should have said that.

I think it's completely reasonable to say
(a) I only want to talk about this issue with other people who have vaginas
and also
(b) I only want to talk about this issue with other women who have vaginas.

Sounds like the group is for (a) whereas you want (b). I think that's completely reasonable but you'll have to find a different group.

That's made even more stupid by the fact that the vagina isn't part of your genitals as it's internal, genitals means reproductive organs on the outside of the body, in a female this would be the vulva and clitoris for example.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

It's really hard to set up a female only group on Facebook, they get brigaded by troublemakers doing "activism". It would probably need to be a secret group and invitation only, and even then I've seen people screenshot private posts to cause trouble for women.

Really? I’ve been part of a recurrent miscarriage group on fb for years and that’s never been a problem. But unless someone can enlighten me the rmc misscariages myself and other members suffered were all women born with a vagina

myself and other members suffered were all women born with a vagina

So women then? No FTM trans people who identify as men?

Eh... What is there to believe or not believe?! It's literally the definition of being a bloody woman ffs. It's not a belief. I'm a woman because biologically I'm female

It's the poster MarkRuffalo was responding to who believes that there is another acceptable definition for "woman" than simply being female.

Please can someone educate me here. I am surprised trans men care about vaginismus and therefore wondering why any men would need to join such a support group. Am I misunderstanding? I didn't think trans men would want to use their vaginas for penetrative sex, so what problem does vaginismus cause them? You can avoid using tampons and moon cups. I'm confused.

@thebabessavedme

How is anti-trans to state that only women have vaginas?

Because it is anti-trans?

Because female-to-male trans folks have vaginas unless they've had surgery?

They are transmen, not women, and they have vaginas.

It's not hard to understand 🙄

You have to wonder the motivation of some one with a penis wanting to join such a group.

I couldn't talk about vaginal issues knowing there were such people in the group.

OP YANBU

what problem does vaginismus cause them?

It's a painful condition, whether you want to have PIV sex or not.

Because it is anti-trans?
No. Not all trans people espouse this ideology. Are you saying their experiences are less valid?

I've seen up-to-date info from an organisation dealing with women's health which gets this right: it refers to 'women' throughout the main section & has a section specifically for transmen/NB etc in which it sensitively explores how to support them & their specific needs.

That seems right, to me. It provides the best support for the greatest number of people, which should be the aim of any health organisation.

I'm not going to say which one it is, because we all know what would happen next.