Do I have a right to be angry about this? (Trans related)

[Nc109283485]

Nc for obvious reasons. This is a very personal issue to me which I am understandably sensitive about, so this may be why I feel this way. I am perfectly happy to be told I AMBU! I believe trans people deserve love and respect and a happy life just like everyone else. So why did this concern and anger me?

I have a condition called vaginismus which has been very traumatic and caused me lots of grief over my life. In my eyes it is a very personal and female problem. (Look if up if you're not sure what it is).

I have tried to join a support group on a social media platform to really get to the bottom of it and sort it out. I wont say which one as dont want to 'out' either myself or the group involved. My request was pending and a message sent. I assumed this was to confirm I definitely suffer from this condition and to make sure I wasn't some strange pervert, but no! The administrator messaged me to say that before I was accepted I would have to answer a 'test question' as this is a gender inclusive group. Will I be addressing group members as 'ladies, men or everyone'. The tone felt quite aggressive and if I did not pass this test I would not be admitted.

My first thought was are men allowed to enter this group? Do I really have to speak about my vagina in front of 'everyone'? Why not say hello ladies (and the occasional transman who currently has issues with their vagina) no I have to address everyone? Wtf?

I honestly don't know what to think right now but this group clearly isn't for me. But maybe I just need some re-education?

"They are transmen, not women, and they have vaginas.

It's not hard to understand 🙄"

But they ARE biological women. Obviously that is what the poster is saying.

They are transmen, not women, and they have vaginas. It's not hard to understand

You'd think

@TheSeaMonkeyHasMyMoney *Because female-to-male trans folks have vaginas unless they've had surgery?

They are transmen, not women, and they have vaginas.*

Then if they haven't had the surgery, they are not trans. Self-ID does not make you trans. In order to be transgender you have to have the surgery. If a person still has a vagina, they are a woman. That is basic biology and science.

*Because female-to-male trans folks have vaginas unless they've had surgery?

They are transmen, not women, and they have vaginas.

It's not hard to understand* 🙄

And yet, not that long ago, it wasn't hard to understand that people with vaginas were women and people with penises were men. I still haven't seen any scientific, sociological or indeed logical evidence as to why it is or should be any different, other than the aggressive say-so of transactivists.

Biology does not change regardless of surgery.
You can live as your chosen gender, request to be referred to as your chosen gender, have surgeries to make your outward appearance more like your chosen gender. But your genetic and biological reality will never change. That's the reality and it will never change no matter how hard some people want it to.

They are transmen, not women, and they have vaginas.

It's not hard to understand

I disagree, because it doesn't make any sense. Being a man isn't about feelings, it's about biology. It's not a value judgement. It's ok to be a woman, even if you don't feel how you think being a woman should feel like.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

No it isn't inclusive of me as a woman with the condition if I am going to be made to feel uncomfortable for talking about my lived experience as a woman.

So they should oust another set of people to make you comfortable? Can't you see the hypocrisy there?

That is EXACTLY what you and the mods of that group are suggesting/doing. Can't you see the hypocrisy there? That if an actual woman doesn't answer a political question properly, she can be excluded from a health group? You can't see your own hypocrisy, can you?

If you have a vagina, you are not a man.

Its not that hard to understand.

To be honest re vaginismus it WAS transwomen - some get a neovagina made from penile tissue which needs to be dilated regularly . Using the same ones you’re given if you have vaginismus . I remember an acquaintance mistakenly deciding they had vaginismus as couldn’t get the dilators in (they told us all on FB...) and campaigning for better awareness .

Compared to me, the vagina I’ve always had, that I can’t use at all . Told it’s not a health problem that the NHS treat - as I don’t need to be able to have penetrative sex . A junior doctor actually said, ‘It’s really not my priority’ and a consultant said, ‘Have you tried gritting your teeth and forcing it?’

Fucking hell Tired

Flowers Tired.

Compared to me, the vagina I’ve always had, that I can’t use at all . Told it’s not a health problem that the NHS treat - as I don’t need to be able to have penetrative sex . A junior doctor actually said, ‘It’s really not my priority’ and a consultant said, ‘Have you tried gritting your teeth and forcing it?’

I had a GP suggest I buy myself a copy of the joy of sex.

They are transmen and they have vaginas.

Easy to understand.

Not male, as they do not have male gametes, a Y chromosome, secondary sex organs etc.
Female, because they have ovaries, vaginas, XX.
But not defining themselves as 'woman'.

It seems to me that woman refers to 'Adult Human Female' and the gendered presentation of that is Transwoman.
And vice-versa for men/ Transmen.
If biology was not a 'thing' there would be no Trans, would there? Because everyone who feels like a woman would have the same biology. Female biology.

We have Women, Transwomen, Men, Transmen.

All human beings who deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. And none should be subjected to discrimination, prejudice or lack of access to human rights.

What human rights do trans men not have?

In the UK. Not the US.

That is EXACTLY whatyouand the mods of that group are suggesting/doing. Can'tyousee the hypocrisy there? That if an actual woman doesn't answer a political question properly, she can be excluded from a health group? You can't see your own hypocrisy, can you?

The op wishes to join a group that is already set up to be inclusive of trans people. She doesn't feel comfortable using language that is trans inclusive. Why should the solution be to change the, already established, group, and not for the op to find a more suitable group.

Honestly, people on this site complain all the time about transgender people eroding their rights and invading their spaces, then a thread like this comes along and the answer is is to erode the rights and space of trans people.

And I'm the hypocrite?

Either you want established groups to change because someone is uncomfortable, or you don't.

Honestly, people on this site complain all the time about transgender people eroding their rights and invading their spaces, then a thread like this comes along and the answer is is to erode the rights and space of trans people.

Amen.

[quote Cokie3]**@TheSeaMonkeyHasMyMoney* Because female-to-male trans folks have vaginas unless they've had surgery?

They are transmen, not women, and they have vaginas.*

Then if they haven't had the surgery, they are not trans. Self-ID does not make you trans. In order to be transgender you have to have the surgery. If a person still has a vagina, they are a woman. That is basic biology and science.[/quote]
You are so misinformed.

Want help with your health issues? Say your catechism first like a good girl then e might think about whether you've been good enough to join our group.

It really is the new religion, isn't it?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

myself and other members suffered were all women born with a vagina

So women then? No FTM trans people who identify as men?

As far as I know no there wasn’t but I guess as it would be a very small minority of women who experience rmc and we’re talking 6 in my case and around that and higher in some other members the chances someone also going through a transistion to the opposite gender (to which they were born) would be unlikely....only saying that as that would be a lot to have going on in your life; ttc, losing babies via miscarriage and transitioning to be a man so perhaps this is an area unaffected by trans people and a v much biological female issue

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

That is EXACTLY whatyouand the mods of that group are suggesting/doing. Can'tyousee the hypocrisy there? That if an actual woman doesn't answer a political question properly, she can be excluded from a health group? You can't see your own hypocrisy, can you?

The op wishes to join a group that is already set up to be inclusive of trans people. She doesn't feel comfortable using language that is trans inclusive. Why should the solution be to change the, already established, group, and not for the op to find a more suitable group.

Honestly, people on this site complain all the time about transgender people eroding their rights and invading their spaces, then a thread like this comes along and the answer is is to erode the rights and space of trans people.

And I'm the hypocrite?

Either you want established groups to change because someone is uncomfortable, or you don't.

When are you going to acknowledge what posters have been saying throughout this thread? As soon as it's known there is a female only group, the wokerati do whatever they need to to get it shut down. It's not just as simple as finding a new group, they are all being forced into being inclusive.

@Tiredandfrightenedoffuture

To be honest re vaginismus it WAS transwomen - some get a neovagina made from penile tissue which needs to be dilated regularly . Using the same ones you’re given if you have vaginismus . I remember an acquaintance mistakenly deciding they had vaginismus as couldn’t get the dilators in (they told us all on FB...) and campaigning for better awareness .

Compared to me, the vagina I’ve always had, that I can’t use at all . Told it’s not a health problem that the NHS treat - as I don’t need to be able to have penetrative sex . A junior doctor actually said, ‘It’s really not my priority’ and a consultant said, ‘Have you tried gritting your teeth and forcing it?’

Jesus Tired, that's appalling

It's not right that women are treated so appallingly in so many aspects of healthcare.

I get that TM may need to talk about these things but if they wish to be I. a group like OP referenced they must accept we will not police our language or at down our experiences. What we have in common is our bodies and the stuff it puts us through. It does no one any favours to skirt round the issues.

Sorry OP. This stuff is the same in many places now. I have left a fair few groups which even just last year were female only that went down the 'transinclusive' road and became extremely unwelcoming to many women, even kicking some out at times for refusing to use terms like 'vagina havers'.

I say trans inclusive in '' because there are ways of being inclusive to trans people which do not include making out woman is a dirty word, and kicking people out for discussing womens health and such. I am yet to hear of any mens groups even getting these demands, let alone caving to them. Which makes it all the more depressing. Only women, how surprising.

@coolitcathy

Honestly, people on this site complain all the time about transgender people eroding their rights and invading their spaces, then a thread like this comes along and the answer is is to erode the rights and space of trans people.

Amen.

Except its not a group or a space 'for' trans people is it? Its a group for women, maybe of whom one or two happen to identify as trans. The vast majority of women in this group will have been been and identify as women, and are suffering with an exclusively women's issue.

It really is the new religion, isn't it?

There are many, many parallels.