Do I have a right to be angry about this? (Trans related)

[Nc109283485]

Nc for obvious reasons. This is a very personal issue to me which I am understandably sensitive about, so this may be why I feel this way. I am perfectly happy to be told I AMBU! I believe trans people deserve love and respect and a happy life just like everyone else. So why did this concern and anger me?

I have a condition called vaginismus which has been very traumatic and caused me lots of grief over my life. In my eyes it is a very personal and female problem. (Look if up if you're not sure what it is).

I have tried to join a support group on a social media platform to really get to the bottom of it and sort it out. I wont say which one as dont want to 'out' either myself or the group involved. My request was pending and a message sent. I assumed this was to confirm I definitely suffer from this condition and to make sure I wasn't some strange pervert, but no! The administrator messaged me to say that before I was accepted I would have to answer a 'test question' as this is a gender inclusive group. Will I be addressing group members as 'ladies, men or everyone'. The tone felt quite aggressive and if I did not pass this test I would not be admitted.

My first thought was are men allowed to enter this group? Do I really have to speak about my vagina in front of 'everyone'? Why not say hello ladies (and the occasional transman who currently has issues with their vagina) no I have to address everyone? Wtf?

I honestly don't know what to think right now but this group clearly isn't for me. But maybe I just need some re-education?

@TheGreatWave

Seriously to everyone who thinks that this is acceptable needs to FO. How I have 3 children baffles me, I can't even remember the last time I had sex. So yes I would be polite but no way am I going to tailor my language when talking about an issue that happens due to my female biology in case someone gets offended when I talk about it and how it has fucking affecting my life and therefore my marriage for 18 fucking years.

So yeah all you who think it isn't an issue fuck off because no one has a right to diminish my lived experience.

I am so so angry that my issue that has an impact on my life is being used by others that don't as a weapon against me.

So OP YANBU

I feel exactly the same. I don't know how I managed to get pregnant. Don't suppose you know of any support groups for this issue that are decent?

So you agree that "woman" is based on your sex, not your gender identity?

Not necessarily, I'm just not policing your gender identity or preferred pronouns. If you don't feel you have a gender identity but preferably (?) want to be perceived as a woman and use "she / her" pronouns then that's up to you.

@Hollybutnoivy

Individuals who have a biological sex and a lack of gender identity usually identify as non-binary / agender (unless I'm missing the point of the question which I might be!)

What I am trying to explain is that this "inclusive" way of referring to people by their gender identity (an internal feeling) means that you are excluding women who believe in SEX not gender identity from their own category. I refuse to "identify" as non-binary just because I don't believe in or recognise myself as having a gender identity. It is not inclusive to tell women that they are not women because they don't believe in an idea of gender.

Nobody is excluding you. If you are a woman then you can join any woman's group, as can any other woman. How is that exclusionary?

The truth is you are excluding yourself from a group that you seem to have made up yourself, which is for women who have certain biology only. But that's not what the category is. The category is just "women". I could equally say that you are excluding woman who do believe in gender identify from their own category. See the problem here?

It appears you believe that you are a woman because you were born with female genitalia and XX chromosomes. You feel you have a sex identity and no gender identity. Nobody is saying that is wrong or you can't believe that. It's fine.

The point is that you don't have the right to tell someone else that they are NOT a woman, or to request that they be excluded based on your own terms. You can say what you like about yourself, that's fine, but you don't get to dictate on behalf of someone else.

Only one of our mutually exclusive beliefs is founded on any sort of meaningful definition. Do you actually truly believe that biological sex doesn't exist? And my point stands, you were being entirely disingenuous, which is a bit rich when you're complaining about others doing the same, don't you think?

I would say legal definition is pretty meaningful.

I wasn't being disingenuous at all, I really cannot see why transgender men shouldn't be included in this group, and I know that, no matter what is said, we will still hold differing opinions.

The op chose to try and join a trans inclusive group, she is complaining about that. She should join a different group, its really that simple.

Not necessarily

Woman can be defined either by sex or gender identity. Gender identity is not something we can measure (unlike sex), it's not something we can see, it's not something everyone has. If you are arguing that we should use gender identity I disagree with you, but at least you (sort of) make sense. What I can't get my head around is that you seem to be saying that anything goes - use sex, use gender identity - whatever you like! Can't you see that this is illogical? If anyone can be a woman/man then it no longer has any meaning whatsoever.

But that's not what the category is. The category is just "women". I could equally say that you are excluding woman who do believe in gender identify from their own category. See the problem here?

No, not really. I could equally say that if you exclude people who believe the moon is made of green cheese from the category "astronomers" you are excluding them "from their own category". Your gender identity ideology should not be my issue, as someone who understands that women are female, and that it's important to have words for the female sex class, and sex based oppression and rights.

I hate how it’s becoming the norm to say “people with a vagina,” “pregnant people” and “people who have periods.” Why erase the existence of women? Why is the word “women” offensive? You’re free to identify as a trans woman or a trans man, but you’re still biologically a woman or man.

I do know a trans man, but assumed he was a man from the get go. {Young}

However, Trans men don't appear to be as invasive or aggressive in the same way that some trans women cam be.

You can say what you like about yourself, that's fine, but you don't get to dictate on behalf of someone else.

So anyone can identify as anything? Can you see any possible problems with this approach?

I would say legal definition is pretty meaningful.

What legal definition? Do you believe that only people with a GRC count?

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

Only one of our mutually exclusive beliefs is founded on any sort of meaningful definition. Do you actually truly believe that biological sex doesn't exist? And my point stands, you were being entirely disingenuous, which is a bit rich when you're complaining about others doing the same, don't you think?

I would say legal definition is pretty meaningful.

I wasn't being disingenuous at all, I really cannot see why transgender men shouldn't be included in this group, and I know that, no matter what is said, we will still hold differing opinions.

The op chose to try and join a trans inclusive group, she is complaining about that. She should join a different group, its really that simple.

And what happen when ALL the 'womens' groups and places become the same? Where is she supposed to go then?

And what happen when ALL the 'womens' groups and places become the same?

As is happening.

Regardless of the man/woman whatever debate - I can see why men might be interested in vaginismus, if for example they have a partner who is a sufferer.

Has a manufactured vagina ever suffered from vaginismus?

The clue is in the name of the condition
vaginismus.

I mean it has vagina in the name for goodness sake.

The level of double think to believe that you have a vagina, a condition that affects vaginas, and that you are a man.

No way they actually believe that. You're mind would explode. Raining pink glitter everywhere. Or blue?
Trans men are men?
And we were always at war with Oceania.

Create a Mumsnet group OP. At least you'll get some compassionate people with sense.

Nobody is saying transmen should be excluded, they are saying bowing down at the altar of genderism should not be an entry requirement.

@notreallybotheredaboutausernam if those people have a vagina, then they are a female. That's basic science and biology.

I think keep away from this group. And good luck to you,what I've seen about your condition is painful x Much hugs to you xx

Yeah OP! What the hell are you doing as a woman trying to join a woman's group for an exclusively woman's issue? What the hell were you thinking? Best toddle off and find a group where you belong!

What legal definition? Do you believe that only people with a GRC count?

Personally, no I don't. However you will argue with my personal beliefs, as they obviously differ from yours. I was just pointing out that there are people who have legally transitioned and that I would consider the law pretty meaningful.

What is stopping the op setting up her own group? Trans people are regularly told to do this.

@PinkPandaBear

I hate how it’s becoming the norm to say “people with a vagina,” “pregnant people” and “people who have periods.” Why erase the existence of women? Why is the word “women” offensive? You’re free to identify as a trans woman or a trans man, but you’re still biologically a woman or man.

I recently did some pregnancy related training for work - the word woman was not said once by the trainer. Birth giver. Also - genitals. Trying to teach pelvic floor exercises without saying the word vagina. The baby comes out of your genitals. I found it infuriating.

What is stopping the op setting up her own group?

Because as soon as she made it female only, she would probably be told that was not inclusive.

@littlepeas That is really awful.

I was just pointing out that there are people who have legally transitioned and that I would consider the law pretty meaningful.

They haven't actually changed sex, because that isn't physically possible. It's a legal fiction, like many others. And there are exemptions to the GRA and other laws which interact with it, so they don't have exactly the same legal status as a person of the opposite sex.

And it also makes zero sense! No babies come out of penises! What's wrong with vagina?

Because as soon as she made it female only, she would probably be told that was not inclusive.

Exactly this. It's a red rag to transactivists and their "inclusive" righteous friends of either sex.