The way I speak to my partner: are we doomed?

[MoanerLisa2021]

I know IABVU and I need you lovely straight-talking ladies to sort me the eff out!

I have this really lovely partner of 4 years with innumerable good qualities. Ok he could do a bit better on the beard-hair-all-over-the-sink front, but I know I’ve got a good’un and I’m really really lucky.

So why does every word out of my mouth to him always seem to be a nag or a moan? I can’t seem to help myself, I make up my mind to try really hard not to nag or moan and before I know it it’s out of my mouth and he’s offended or hurt that despite everything good he does, I’m incapable of laying off him for any tiny transgression like not wiping the hob down after he’s splattered food all over it.

He usually weathers the storm and continues to be a little gem until every now and again it gets too much for him and he has a go at me. I get upset and tell him I know I’m a total cow, resolve 100% to do better. And it lasts for all of like an hour.

What’s wrong with me? Why can’t I show respect towards a fabulous guy? He definitely questions whether I love him and I really feel like I do love him so much! I couldn’t be without him or with anyone else. To compound the issue, I had a baby 9 months ago and my sex drive is pretty much zero (was also zero in the latter part of pregnancy and tbh I wasn’t exactly gagging for it before that).

We do live 3 hours from my family and 2 hours from his, in an unfamiliar area after returning from overseas so neither of us has any friends nearby. But that sounds like an excuse and I shouldn’t be making excuses.

Thoughts? puts on helmet and prepares for the worst

Long time lurker, first time poster. Your partner is a manchild. For two reasons.

Firstly, if he's letting the lid of the bin get dirty and not cleaning it, he's not doing the job properly. The bin will get disgusting (not ok in itself), and you will be left to clean it (even more not ok). If he doesn't clean the sink after shaving, it's because at some level he thinks someone else should do it for him -- or perhaps that other people should have to live with his trimmings in the sink.

Secondly, he's refusing to take responsibility. First exhibit: see above. Second exhibit: all stuff around the baby and the dog (big fuck-off red flag here).

This might well be strategic incompetence, but it certainly goes beyond gross inconsiderateness and reaches the levels of fuckwittery.

The nagging isn't the problem: it's a symptom of the problem. You're nagging because he's not taking responsibility: that's the problem. The tricky part is that 'nagging' exacerbates the problem (which is that you have to take on more responsibility) rather than addressing it.

Ultimately you need to agree between you what is an adequate state in which to leave the bins, the cooker, the basin--and both to leave it in that state. Whoever is emptying the bins makes sure the bin gets cleaned sufficiently regularly that it doesn't stink. Whoever does it gets to decide whether that means (a) emptying it before it gets dirty or (b) cleaning it when it has got dirty, before it stinks. Whoever uses the basin leaves it in the agreed state. I recommend having changing (but still clear) responsibilities, rather than a fixed, permanent division of rôles.

Eve Rodsky's Fair Play is good (I've seen it recommended elsewhere on this site, but don't think it's come up on this thread so far): see www.fairplaylife.com/

@ConquestEmpireHungerPlague

Omg, I was just about to post that the OP should absolutely ignore all of *@aceofharts* shocking advice, but I see I'm too late. In what parallel universe substituting swear words into baby books or taunting a growling dog with a squealing baby are the mere 'mistakes of a first time parent' I can't even imagine. One with very low standards, that's for sure. And as for 'projecting [our] own relationship insecurities and ideologies' goes...well, I can't speak for all of us who think this man is a juvenile waste of space, but personally I'm in a very happy 20+ year relationship with a man who would never run downstairs hours later than agreed saying 'Sorreeee, what can I do...?' but would turn up in time to pull his weight and look around to see what needed doing instead of asking for it to be explained to him. If thinking that's a normal, grown-up way for a husband and father to behave is an 'ideology', then I guess I'm guilty as charged.

OP, you're being gaslighted. First by a husband who imagines you're there to be his support act and blames you when you don't fulfil that role joyfully enough, and now by @aceofharts and anyone else on the thread who thinks that your 'behaviour' is 'clearly toxic and unloving'.

There is so much internalised misogyny on this thread it's really quite upsetting.

This 100%.

FWIW I find this comic much better than the "my wife left me because of the dishes one". First read it years ago but keep coming back to it cause it's so good:

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/26/gender-wars-household-chores-comic

@Juno231 I’ve saved this to my favourites, brilliant!

Yes, the Emma cartoons are fab. There are books of them, OP. Perhaps you should buy them and give them to him. (The perfect wedding anniversary gift...?)

• Mental Load

• Emotional Load

funny that i was thinking about this today.... on a walk in the park, meditate on your mind mouth connection, and also upon your thoughts and the process that enables you to 'speak your truth'.... there is a process where certain thoughts/feelings/beliefs arrive at an area in your brain where your mouth engages somehow and words are spoken... imagine that there is a vestibule in your mind where words/thoughts arrive ready to be despatched into the world (speaking)... arrest these thoughts...so that you are able to stop the pattern of saying things that you regret... it is only through meditation on your mind/body that you will be able to redirect yourself and begin new types of responses and conversations with this sweet man that sounds like he is worth the effort... use your imagination and even invent visions that articulate the process, I have sometimes this issue and it really is a frame of mind.. an attitude... perhaps it is arrogance, or a deluded confidence, but somehow perhaps you have been enabled to be like this.. to say such things in such a manner... so I sympathise and really encourage you to realise that some amount of effort is required to change this... schedule a little chat with yourself and mental excersise that you can practice.... it's great that you've recognised this....you sound young and full of energy... make that work for you and not against you...

Just come back to this thread and found this nugget. WTF?!

@OhCaptain

Two ticks and a wish?

Two fucks and an off! Imagine someone speaking to you like this! 🤣🤣🤣

The two ticks and a wish thing is blowing my mind...

To come back to it properly, I think that you need to have some convos with your other half about what is a compromise on what is non-negotiable (swearing, dog), and what you'll have to come to some agreement about in terms of what is acceptable standards.

So, cleaning the bin lid so often......hmmm....Im' not a clean freak, so I can live with the odd dribble on the bin, or something stuck to the underside of the lid. DH can live with it FILTHY, and I get disgusted by it sooner. I prefer to live by my standards so I'll give it a clean every couple of weeks (so my standards are much lower than yours).

The problem will occur when you can't agree a compromise about hygiene standards. You sound very different in terms of what you both think is acceptable. Your household hygiene standards sound high, his sound low (to be honest, like a lot of men's - they genuinely seem happier to live amongst dirt and mess but expect everyone else to feel the same way as them. Er......no!). You may have to lower SOME of yours slightly, he may have to put some more effort in for some of his. eg how hard is it to rinse the sink. Takes 3 seconds to run the tap and wipe it with your fingers. If you told him you expected him to get the spray out and wipe it over with a sponge every time BECAUSE NOTHING ELSE WILL DO, then I can see why he'd just sigh.

@BuntysTwinkle

Neither of you is wrong, you just have different standards. The ideal would be for both of you to give a little. A baby wipe on the highchair is going to be fine until the next feed, not wiping out the bin on his turn (assuming there's a binbag to remove) is not the worst thing.

Honestly I'm more like your DH. There are a few cupboard items from Monday's shop still sitting on the side because I got distracted when I was putting everything away. My ex was more like you. I once got scolded like a child for leaving cutlery on the draining board instead of drying it and putting it away so it didn't develop spots. I am so happy to be without him and with my spotty cutlery

Maybe think about what your absolute deal breakers are, and try to ease up on the rest.

That.

Your DP cooks every evening. He's not a complete lightweight in the household stakes. You simply don't think his standards are good enough.

You either learn to live with that and manage it in a non-naggy way (like someone else suggested "just pop the pet beds in the wash while I'm doing this, will you - they're already wet again" rather than "you didn't dry the dogs' paws again and now the beds are wet" or you risk the relationship.

I refused to do the two ticks and a wish thing when I was a teacher. I refused to patronise the kids that way, never mind adults.

The point many of you are ultimately trying to convey is that OP’s partner is not a good partner. This is NOT the point OP was trying to make. She has made it clear that she loves her partner and thinks he’s a ‘good un.’ Many of you have jumped on the “he’s a twat” bandwagon and deviated far from OP’s original post and are now questioning this man’s worth as a partner and father - totally unfair

I think most of us can agree that hairy sinks, sticky bin lids and misplaced recyclables is far from the “ideal” but the point I’m trying to make is that just because it’s not YOUR ideal doesn’t mean that everyone else around you has to fall in line with that

OP was asking if she thinks the nagging and criticism is harmful and potentially damaging to her relationship. I still agree with that. There will end up being an awful lot of resentment, from both parties, if they continue in this environment and over time that resentment could tear apart the relationship and the family. Remember why you fell in love with him in the first place...I bet it wasn’t because he cleans the hob

As a side note: @ConquestEmpireHungerPlague which part is the misogynistic part of this thread?

Many of you have jumped on the “he’s a twat” bandwagon

It's not a bandwagon. We are mostly people who have never met each other and have no desire to be hitched to each other's wagons. It's lots of individual's opinions. They're all quite similar because the truth is blaringly obvious.

@aceofharts: you only listed the household cleanliness stuff in your last post. OP refers to other far more important things apart from that. There are clearly 2 strands to this. OP would have been better separating the 2 types of issue into 2 separate posts. No-one sane would advise the OP to "LTB" on the basis that they were a bit sloppy on the household hygiene front. (although if there a VAST difference in outlook on that front and neither wants to compromise or see it from the other's point of view then that will cause tension).

The danger is that issues that are perfectly valid things to raise with her OH as a problem end up kdismissed by him as her "having a go at him about everything every 5 mins". Then he sees her as a "nag" and the important valid stuff just gets lost and he will feel that he's perfectly fine to carry on with it.

Just carry on as you are OP. In a few years he will leave for someone a bit less critical so you won't have to deal with him. He has choices too.

OP was asking if she thinks the nagging and criticism is harmful and potentially damaging to her relationship.

Yes, ace, this is what the OP was asking, and on the face of it it did initially seem like she’s criticising and micromanaging, which i think everyone agrees is corrosive to a relationship. But then she clarified her main points of conflict, and it became clear actually her DP is pretty lazy and dismissive of her feelings and opinions - like repeatedly warning him about the dog and the baby. Then when it comes to a head because she’s ‘always nagging’ he gets cross with her and then pulls the woe is me I’m always in the wrong you don’t love me card. As if loving him means being his personal maid and cleaning up (or cheerfully ignoring) the beard hair he knew was all over the bathroom.

OP thinks it’s an issue she’s not allowed to mention - because he’s a ‘good un’ because ‘other blokes don’t do as much’ (ie count yourself lucky, woman) and it’s petty - he’s even told her outright she’s not allowed to mention it when he’s done a shit job. But she is experiencing cognitive dissonance - because she knows it’s not all down to her.

The misogyny is internalised - she’s swallowed the must be a good bloke if he does ANY ‘woman’s work’ like cleaning, cooking, reading to baby.

I’m sure there’s truth in it that her high standards are causing conflict with his very low standards. But that doesn’t make it her fault. Or her problem to fix. He needs to shape up to give her a chance to ease off.

In a few years he will leave for someone a bit less critical so you won't have to deal with him. He has choices too.

This immediately brought an image of Wayne and Waynetta Slob to mind.

I refused to do the two ticks and a wish thing when I was a teacher. I refused to patronise the kids that way, never mind adults. My mother did it to us when she was bringing us up. We got to an age where we objected to it and it became known as "Very nice but" which we said every time she started on this line. It did eventually stop her.

@CurlyhairedAssassin

funny that i was thinking about this today.... on a walk in the park, meditate on your mind mouth connection, and also upon your thoughts and the process that enables you to 'speak your truth'.... there is a process where certain thoughts/feelings/beliefs arrive at an area in your brain where your mouth engages somehow and words are spoken... imagine that there is a vestibule in your mind where words/thoughts arrive ready to be despatched into the world (speaking)... arrest these thoughts...so that you are able to stop the pattern of saying things that you regret... it is only through meditation on your mind/body that you will be able to redirect yourself and begin new types of responses and conversations with this sweet man that sounds like he is worth the effort... use your imagination and even invent visions that articulate the process, I have sometimes this issue and it really is a frame of mind.. an attitude... perhaps it is arrogance, or a deluded confidence, but somehow perhaps you have been enabled to be like this.. to say such things in such a manner... so I sympathise and really encourage you to realise that some amount of effort is required to change this... schedule a little chat with yourself and mental excersise that you can practice.... it's great that you've recognised this....you sound young and full of energy... make that work for you and not against you...

Just come back to this thread and found this nugget. WTF?!

I think it means 'engage your brain before opening your mouth'.

Well I just tried to talk to him about it all, clearly went about it the wrong way, and it turned into a massive argument. Because the examples from this thread are the ones fresh in my mind I used a few of them for reference, and this in hindsight was probably a bad idea.

He said I get my own way all the time and I control him, and gave a few examples like telling him to come off his iPad and watch a TV programme with me, and it’ll always be something I want to watch not him. This is true, I sort of wheedle at him to watch something with me, even if I know it’s something he doesn’t like. There never seems to be anything on TV that we both want to watch though, but in that case I suppose I should leave him to it on his iPad or do something else while he watches what he likes. I just like the idea of watching TV together, but now I say it I can see that this is a bit pathetic: if there’s nothing on TV we both like then it just isn’t something we can do. He also said if he wants to do something and I don’t then we don’t do it. I feel like this goes both ways but he doesn’t agree. I guess being honest there isn’t really much that we both enjoy doing.

Turns out he’s also upset because we spent Christmas Day with my family and I assumed from the get-go that we would, didn’t even consider spending it with his. I justified this by saying I’ve been really lonely and desperately wanted to see my family after becoming a new mum without any support or anything (Covid was also a massive factor in all of it), but he’s right - ultimately I put my feelings above his and this was wrong. I said as much to him.

I tried to say what some PP have mentioned about having our set tasks around the house and agreeing on a reasonable standard for these to be done to. He said he already does things to what he believes is a ‘reasonable standard’, so obviously what I mean is that we would be agreeing to do things to my standard. So he thinks the way he leaves the bin and the sink after washing up etc. is fine (factoring in time and the amount of effort he wants to put into it) and me asking for it to be cleaner than that is just me ‘having my own way’ again. When I brought up beard hair he said he doesn’t have an infinite amount of time so things just get done to the standard he has time for. Fair enough I guess, he does work full time and then cook and bath the baby pretty much every weekday.

Regarding bottle tops in the drawer, he said it’s OUR drawer and who am I to decide what goes in it. If he wants it to be for utensils and bottle tops then that’s up to him, because he owns the drawer as much as I do.

When I brought up the dog incident he said something about a logical fallacy, that just because I’ve had dogs doesn’t mean I’m right when it comes to dogs, reiterated that me being nervous about their interactions is more likely to make the dog bite the baby.

Tbh I’m a bit confused now but I don’t think I can escape the fact that I am selfish, horrible to live with and massively controlling. Maybe as @Eckhart says we are just incompatible and unable to compromise, and that should say it all. I’m scared now because if we split up I know he will push for 50/50 custody of our daughter and I don’t know how I will cope without her for half of the time, she’s really become my whole world. What a mess :(

@MoanerLisa2021

Well I just tried to talk to him about it all, clearly went about it the wrong way, and it turned into a massive argument. Because the examples from this thread are the ones fresh in my mind I used a few of them for reference, and this in hindsight was probably a bad idea.

He said I get my own way all the time and I control him, and gave a few examples like telling him to come off his iPad and watch a TV programme with me, and it’ll always be something I want to watch not him. This is true, I sort of wheedle at him to watch something with me, even if I know it’s something he doesn’t like. There never seems to be anything on TV that we both want to watch though, but in that case I suppose I should leave him to it on his iPad or do something else while he watches what he likes. I just like the idea of watching TV together, but now I say it I can see that this is a bit pathetic: if there’s nothing on TV we both like then it just isn’t something we can do. He also said if he wants to do something and I don’t then we don’t do it. I feel like this goes both ways but he doesn’t agree. I guess being honest there isn’t really much that we both enjoy doing.

Turns out he’s also upset because we spent Christmas Day with my family and I assumed from the get-go that we would, didn’t even consider spending it with his. I justified this by saying I’ve been really lonely and desperately wanted to see my family after becoming a new mum without any support or anything (Covid was also a massive factor in all of it), but he’s right - ultimately I put my feelings above his and this was wrong. I said as much to him.

I tried to say what some PP have mentioned about having our set tasks around the house and agreeing on a reasonable standard for these to be done to. He said he already does things to what he believes is a ‘reasonable standard’, so obviously what I mean is that we would be agreeing to do things to my standard. So he thinks the way he leaves the bin and the sink after washing up etc. is fine (factoring in time and the amount of effort he wants to put into it) and me asking for it to be cleaner than that is just me ‘having my own way’ again. When I brought up beard hair he said he doesn’t have an infinite amount of time so things just get done to the standard he has time for. Fair enough I guess, he does work full time and then cook and bath the baby pretty much every weekday.

Regarding bottle tops in the drawer, he said it’s OUR drawer and who am I to decide what goes in it. If he wants it to be for utensils and bottle tops then that’s up to him, because he owns the drawer as much as I do.

When I brought up the dog incident he said something about a logical fallacy, that just because I’ve had dogs doesn’t mean I’m right when it comes to dogs, reiterated that me being nervous about their interactions is more likely to make the dog bite the baby.

Tbh I’m a bit confused now but I don’t think I can escape the fact that I am selfish, horrible to live with and massively controlling. Maybe as @Eckhart says we are just incompatible and unable to compromise, and that should say it all. I’m scared now because if we split up I know he will push for 50/50 custody of our daughter and I don’t know how I will cope without her for half of the time, she’s really become my whole world. What a mess :(

Sorry OP, bar the TV example I think he's right on all these points especially this

Turns out he’s also upset because we spent Christmas Day with my family and I assumed from the get-go that we would, didn’t even consider spending it with his. I justified this by saying I’ve been really lonely and desperately wanted to see my family after becoming a new mum without any support or anything (Covid was also a massive factor in all of it), but he’s right - ultimately I put my feelings above his and this was wrong. I said as much to him.

I don’t think you’re compatible.

If DH tried to control some of the things that you do, I’d be out the door. Equally there’s no excuse for facial hair in the sink. He really doesn’t have an extra 10 seconds to finish the job??

He sounds like he could be somebody’s dream man, but he’s not mine and I am not sure he’s yours either.
Just because your friends and relatives think he’s great, it doesn’t mean you’re not allowed to think he’s a pain in the arse.

To be fair, I agree with much of what he says. But that doesn't make you selfish and horribly controlling as such. And I don't think all is lost.

But I do think it makes sense for you to get some counselling together. I think this can be unpicked with someone managing the conversation so that things don't get heated. With a bit of empathy on both sides, you might be able to make things work.

Personally I don't think you're being horribly controlling over all of it.

Hmmm....the TV thing, do you really mean that you literally just tell him to get off his ipad and watch the TV programme with you? You can't tell someone to do that. You can suggest. I tried to get DH to watch GoT with me when I started watching it last year. I would even have rewatched a few if he wanted to start watching it with me. I was enjoying it so much that I was disappointed that he wouldn't even try it as I wanted to experience that level of enjoyment together, as a couple. However, it was choice not to watch it as much as I had a right to be disappointed he didn't want to watch it with me. He was more than happy to give the telly over to me for hours of my life and watch his own thing on the other telly or go on his ipad.

I've come to accept that there are some things that he will get no enjoyment from watching and vice versa. We do have common likes though, telly wise. I think the issue on the telly front with you is that you say you don't have any common interests in terms of TV watching. You can't FORCE it. You could try expressing to him that what you are actually missing is experiencing enjoying the same tv programme together and see what he suggests. Have you tried to watch something that he likes?

I think he has a point re how you spent Christmas. There should have been a discussion in advance, and not an assumption. there should be fair and equal amounts of CHristmases spent with both sides of the family.

I think he's wrong in what he's saying on the cleaning standards front. A compromise is needed by BOTH of you. So he needs to make a bit more effort, and you need to ease up a bit. The beard hair thing is an excuse. That takes seconds, and if it avoids an argument then he should be prepared to take those extra seconds in my view.

He's being a tit about the bottle tops and utensil drawer, unless he's saving the bottle tops for something in particular (apart from recycling). It's almost as if he's using the drawer like that on purpose to wind you up, maybe as a way of asserting his control or independence from you if he feels that you have it all your way in other areas. But if so, that's just childish. Maybe suggest he has his own drawer to keep the bottle tops in - if you both need to use the utensils and having the bottle tops in there makes it difficult for you to get at them then that's time-consuming and irritating.

I don't think he's right about the dog thing either, personally. But it's hard to know the situation. I mean if you're flinching and openly very nervous and tense every time the baby goes near the dog then maybe you should try and be a bit calmer. Although as a new mum, all your protective instincts go into overdrive, so it will be natural that you're feeling like this. He should really realise this and be more understanding.

It sounds like your relationship is not beyond saving, but you could both do with working through some issues with someone who is outside of your relationship. I bet counselling could be beneficial.

Yeah, cross post with Saraclara.