to let dd(15) bind?

[Nutepurple]

she was having a really good Christmas until she tried her new clothes on, and now everything’s gone down hill. they’re not fitting her how she wants them to because she has a fuller chest. I said no to binding a few months ago when she first asked but I’m not sure what to do anymore

It’s a mess.

What I was trying to say earlier - don’t you think that lots of these kids have underlying mental health issues and are mistakenly believing that they are trans, and that transitioning will solve their issues, when in fact it won’t? I think people are angry that „being trans“ is now seen as a solution to a multitude of problems - when really very little effort is being put into checking whether there could be other causes for their distress? For example society’s ridiculous gender stereotypes which are straightjacketing our children??

@tilder

Wasn't meant to be aggressive at all, sorry if it came across like that. The suicide risk is often flagged with absolutely no evidence given. It's dangerous and should be called out.

Not you tilder. The one who stormed in, reported me , called me a liar and insulted my profession.

And people wonder why people remain uneducated when they behave like that towards people who maybe need to learn

The suicide stuff is thrown around constantly by the likes of mermaids, LGBT’s youth Scotland and so on. And by TRAd on Twitter etc . It’s mind bogglingly irresponsible of them.

The training which teachers have been provided with is usually sourced from groups like Mermaids, who are part of the problem.

You absolutely don't have to believe everything we say but please, please do some more research before continuing to spread the damaging myth and lie that "gender questioning = suicidal", especially with autistic kids.

@zzizz

The training which teachers have been provided with is usually sourced from groups like Mermaids, who are part of the problem.

You absolutely don't have to believe everything we say but please, please do some more research before continuing to spread the damaging myth and lie that "gender questioning = suicidal", especially with autistic kids.

I will . Mermaids didn't run it but I didn't make up the week long course we were sent on. Weirdly enough it's a topic that stays with you

It appears I'm naive outdated or both.
But PPs approach wasn't right either.

Implying id lie about children deaths is unspeakable.

No.long term there could be issues. However sports bra is a good option

@Almostslimjim

Meh, I can't get worked up about it. I see it as the same as wearing gel cups and chicken fillets which I did at that age.

Gel cups and fillets have absolutely no long term effect. Binding and ironing damages the tissue.

Thank you for looking into it more. Loads and loads of people have bought into it unfortunately because its been said so authoratively - by authorities.

That's been one of the most sinister things in recent years; finding out that sources I used to unwaveringly trust (like Stonewall) are not necessarily reliable. No one bloody likes to end up sounding like a conspiracy theorist after all, we all like to think that The Grown Ups are in charge.

Meanwhile it's such a big sensitive topic and somehow Stonewall and Mermaids have either falsified or misread data and then gone against every single known guideline for talking about suicide. Its genuinely scandalous.

No, I had the same feelings growing up, albeit without the internet to amplify my feelings. My breasts were big, and although I know to many that sounds good, I hated the attention (it was never positive, just crude) even in tops that weren't low cut etc, and hated looking different from my friends. The key for me was finding styles and cuts of tops that suited my shape, rather than trying to wear stuff not designed with breasts in mind, I felt so much more confident. It sounds like that's more the issue rather than wanting to opt out of womanhood overall. There are also some styles of bra that are more supportive, I sometimes wore a high support sports bra for PE etc rather than just a normal bra.

@zzizz

Thank you for looking into it more. Loads and loads of people have bought into it unfortunately because its been said so authoratively - by authorities.

That's been one of the most sinister things in recent years; finding out that sources I used to unwaveringly trust (like Stonewall) are not necessarily reliable. No one bloody likes to end up sounding like a conspiracy theorist after all, we all like to think that The Grown Ups are in charge.

Meanwhile it's such a big sensitive topic and somehow Stonewall and Mermaids have either falsified or misread data and then gone against every single known guideline for talking about suicide. Its genuinely scandalous.

Course I will. I'm genuinely horrified myself that I wasn't aware of this.

I've been trying to find a recent thread that might discuss the statistics, but all I can find is older ones like these: https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3182787-help-me-out-trans-suicide-rates

And https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3361819-Statistics-on-suicide-rates-amongst-transgender-individuals

I'm not entirely sure if Google indexes all of mumsnet and the search function on the app isn't ideal, someone else might be able to link to more recent statistics?

As well as the ones already mentioned upthread of course.

It really is a scandal.

Cheers zziz. I'll take a look and share it with pals of mine who I trained with who I know have always had the same sort of thoughts.

I can’t believe anyone is advocating binding. Ruining her body won’t stop her being female. Nothing will. The tragedy is that any therapist will automatically tell a child they’re ‘trans’. The gender cult has made sure of it.

@midgeghost

Just thinking , based on my experience growing up, I think that calling them he when they are a she is a short term nice thing whereas it's healthier to learn that you are a she and there is no shame in that and no reason to pretend otherwise. Your body is female and will always be so however much you hate and resent that

"midgeghost

Just thinking , based on my experience growing up, I think that calling them he when they are a she is a short term nice thing whereas it's healthier to learn that you are a she and there is no shame in that and no reason to pretend otherwise. Your body is female and will always be so however much you hate and resent that."

I feel like I've got a bit of shit on here about this. I am aware that my child was born into a female body. I am aware that my child needs to be comfortable in their body and if anyone on here thinks I am not doing everything in my power to help them with that then they are fucking mad.

However. When I am faced with my child saying they would like to take their own life. When they burn themselves. When they purposely bite the inside of their lips to make massive massive ulcers. When they cut their legs to ribbons. If they say that calling them the pronoun "they/them" will help then that is what I will fucking do. It seems a simple thing and it feels like the only thing I can do to help. I wont help them breast bind. Even if its a "short term nice thing."

Also - I have widely read about the bullshit that Stonewall promote and the danger about hormone blockers. I am really really really really really tentative that my child is actually trans and not suffering from other mental health problems. However if they want to be known as they and wear a sports bra to minimise their breasts and wear more "masculine" clothes then that is something I will support 100000%

But why? If she said to you that she felt fat, would you support her 10000% on a restrictive diet and call her Blubber?

Try Transgender Tend or 4th Wave now for more evenhanded information about young women transitioning.
My partner transitioned as an adult FTM. It was very hard twenty years ago.
Too many girls have social and general anxiety about becoming women with all the expectations about charm, social skills, and appearance. Internalized homophobia and misguided nonsense about ginger bread people, blue brains, and pink brains prevents them from expressing homoerotic feelings.
Being a boy sounds easier, but it is not in the long term. Instead of hormones and binding, these girls need at least six months of supportive nondirective psychotherapy to explore what’s behind these feelings.

@Sheleg what an odd comment. Do you have children? Do any of them have mental health difficulties? Calling my child by the pronoun them has absolutely no impact on their physical health. I work with kids with eating disorders so I absolutely wouldn't call them fat or support them eating a restrictive diet. What an odd comparison.

I call my child by their preferred pronouns because out of the 100000000 daily battles it feels like a small one that makes them happy. I buy them more boyish clothes because it makes them happy. I'm not taking them to Thailand to have gender reassignment surgery (like the Chair of Mermaids did) ffs.

@victoriaspongecake

Why not buy her clothes that actually fit?

Yeah!

@NameChangeUnwiseAdvice

You sound like a great mum. I agree you have to pick your battles and pronouns is not the hill to die on.

Binding can have serious long term effects. Even bloody Mermaids, who encourage binding, put out warnings in hot weather about not exercising, wearing for too long etc

Minimiser bras and sports bras can be effective and will hopefully make your child feel you are helping them.

All the best.

As a teenager I delayed getting a bra because I simply did not want to acknowledge my changing body. I wasn’t a ‘girly’ girl, wanted to play guitar in a band and to be accepted as a guitarist not a ‘female’ guitarist. Unfortunately I did not have an androgynous body and when it same to getting a bra it was a hateful experience. I went to gigs and was often down the front squashed against the stage and my breasts just bugged me, got in the way and got me unwanted attention. I remember researching sports bras/minimisers but there weren’t many good ones so I used to wear 2 bras sometimes. Effectively I was ‘binding’. I wanted to be flat.

Today I would have been secretively ordering up a binder online I’m sure. And the adverts for binders make them look like a bog standard ‘foundation’ garment. Quite innocuous but really effective. I would have loved the silhouette they achieved. BUT they are horrendous, damaging, constrictive things that can only be worn for 8 hours. Some schools are accommodating young girls wearing them, excusing them from PE because you can’t get a decent lungful of air wearing them. This summer, Mermaids we’re issuing little pastel-coloured information sheets of how to cope with wearing a binder in the crippling heat - they should have been saying DON’t f*ing wear one!! Honestly, they are like restrictive corsets and can crack ribs.

If my daughter was asking me for one I would be talking and talking about accepting your body, not fighting it and damaging it. If they were really crippled with anxiety about it, I would try and get a decent sports bra, fitted as well as possible to support the breast tissue and give a smooth silhouette. I wouldn’t make a fuss about wearing ‘baggy’ clothing - I would ride that out as frustrating and as upsetting as it would be to me. If it just helped in the short term while we worked on her self-esteem and body image then it’s a compromise. But I would tell them that I could not condone the use of a binder and would explain why and I would get some images ready of what damage a binder could cause. I couldn’t buy my daughter a binder.

It’s difficult - it’s hard to resist the pressure and deal with an upset child but keep the dialogue going. Good luck and I hope your daughter feels better about herself soon.

@Wheresmykimchi

Cheers zziz. I'll take a look and share it with pals of mine who I trained with who I know have always had the same sort of thoughts.

There are a lot of people who come on MN, under different names, throwing the suicide stuff around deliberately. And the claim has also been used to justify drastic measures in kids and teens - like a mastectomy is justifiable, even though it's a serious irreversible surgery with all the risks of surgery - because the other outcome is supposedly death through suicide.

I think that's why people become very reactive/aggressive when people say that stuff here.

The head of Mermaids pulled out the false suicide. stats on Newsnight recently, she was very quickly shot down by Emily Maitlis.