Celebrities daughters in their underwear

[StoneofDestiny]

AIBU to think it's sadly pathetic that so many daughters of celebrities think it's a necessary step in life to raise their 'fame' by posing in their underwear - Jonathan Ross's daughter Honey being the latest.

Somebody needs to draw a line at some point and you cant put that moment off forever by saying 'we shouldnt talk about other women that way'. You arnt allowed to refer to the fact sex work is the exploitative hell it is anymore ffs because thats 'bringing other women down' supposedly.

@Wheresmykimchi In answer to your genuine question, no. None of the posters here are causing females (young or old, slim or overweight) to seek attention via social media. There is no tearing down of females - there is bemusement, disappointment, despair, and disgust at how females are ramping up the sexualised images, how women are falling over themselves to be seen as just tits and ass which has a sell by date on it. They want to post and get the "you are beautiful" comments, but don't like it when others disagree and make derogatory and offensive comments

Totally agree - and very pleased some women are seeking to reverse this trend to downgrade women's worth to the appearance of their body.

It isn't either / or though , is it?

It's possible to both value yourself inherently, and enjoy being found attractive, of course. But getting your kit off on instragram and claiming that it's feminist and empowering, and doing everything you can to attract and titillate the male gaze because you're so "attractive", don't add up. It's not empowering yourself or anyone else, if all you're doing is reinforcing the idea that your value is based in your attractiveness, specifically the attractiveness of your young and naked body to men.

[quote StoneofDestiny]**@Wheresmykimchi In answer to your genuine question, no. None of the posters here are causing females (young or old, slim or overweight) to seek attention via social media. There is no tearing down of females - there is bemusement, disappointment, despair, and disgust at how females are ramping up the sexualised images, how women are falling over themselves to be seen as just tits and ass which has a sell by date on it. They want to post and get the "you are beautiful" comments, but don't like it when others disagree and make derogatory and offensive comments

Totally agree - and very pleased some women are seeking to reverse this trend to downgrade women's worth to the appearance of their body.[/quote]
Referring to other women as getting their knockers out for attention is a sure fire way to downgrade. You are the ones attributing tj worth to their body - a prime example up thread - Jesy made an incredible documentary and is a very talented woman but the immediate comments were ah but she put up a selfie as if that immediately defines her worth.

As per your sentiment of seeking to reverse th trend that is easier to say by women who know this.some of these women are so damaged now they can't escape the cycle. And lecturing and criticising them is not reversing the trend. Perhaps it might be worthwhile looking into why they do this in the first place - clue - its far deeper than 'for attention'.

@HerselfIndoors

It isn't either / or though , is it?

It's possible to both value yourself inherently, and enjoy being found attractive, of course. But getting your kit off on instragram and claiming that it's feminist and empowering, and doing everything you can to attract and titillate the male gaze because you're so "attractive", don't add up. It's not empowering yourself or anyone else, if all you're doing is reinforcing the idea that your value is based in your attractiveness, specifically the attractiveness of your young and naked body to men.

I don't think everything is always about the male gaze , in fairness. How many of us love and like pictures of other women we.know on social media. I know I do.

@user1471565182

Somebody needs to draw a line at some point and you cant put that moment off forever by saying 'we shouldnt talk about other women that way'. You arnt allowed to refer to the fact sex work is the exploitative hell it is anymore ffs because thats 'bringing other women down' supposedly.

But are you under the impression that any of this sort of chat is doing anything other than perpetuating the cycle? The only line this sort of faux bemusement judgment makes is us Vs them.

I agree about being allowed to comment and criticise. I don't think it's OK to be abusive, cruel or critical about things that a person can't control, but it is OK to have an opinion about why a given behaviour or statement is hypocritical, harmful or not in the interests of women in general.

Again there's a problem with this concept of feminism as "choice". and the implication that any choice a woman makes is therefore fine, and you're being unfeminist if you dare to have any other opinion. But even a small amount of thought shows that makes no sense. Women can and do make massively unfeminist choices all the time, whether through self-interest, internalised misogyny or desperation.

@HerselfIndoors

I agree about being allowed to comment and criticise. I don't think it's OK to be abusive, cruel or critical about things that a person can't control, but it is OK to have an opinion about why a given behaviour or statement is hypocritical, harmful or not in the interests of women in general.

Again there's a problem with this concept of feminism as "choice". and the implication that any choice a woman makes is therefore fine, and you're being unfeminist if you dare to have any other opinion. But even a small amount of thought shows that makes no sense. Women can and do make massively unfeminist choices all the time, whether through self-interest, internalised misogyny or desperation.

I agree.

This is not a thread just about Jesy. It is about celeb's offspring who decide that they want fame and start disrobing on social media. And then the discussion evolved into why women are posting ever more sexualised images of themselves. People like Vorderman, Holden and Cundy are middle aged, and despite all of their accomplishments (Cundy excepted - not sure where she came from), they have embraced wholeheartedly social media as a way to show off for attention. They have not been doing this a long time, social media has not been around for most of their lives.

For younger females it has become a norm for a lot of them, whether they are in the public gaze or not. It is narcissistic and self absorbed and feels like we have gone backwards. I agree it is probably not for the male gaze but it is for anyone's gaze - look at me, look at me, and leave a positive comment so that my ego gets stroked some more.

Re the female gaze, yes that is true too. A lot of it is about other women approving and rating the poster's attractiveness. But I think one big reason we want to see other women's bodies is to compare with ourselves and to find them "inspirational" or otherwise.

If you think about it, why look at women's bodies, approve women's bodies, praise other women for showing off their bodies etc etc ad nauseam, when this is not something men do (at lease not anywhere near the same extent)? I'd argue it's because we're all immersed in a society where that message and values are soaking into us all the time - that the attractiveness and display of your body, as a woman, is important.

@Melange99

This is not a thread just about Jesy. It is about celeb's offspring who decide that they want fame and start disrobing on social media. And then the discussion evolved into why women are posting ever more sexualised images of themselves. People like Vorderman, Holden and Cundy are middle aged, and despite all of their accomplishments (Cundy excepted - not sure where she came from), they have embraced wholeheartedly social media as a way to show off for attention. They have not been doing this a long time, social media has not been around for most of their lives.

For younger females it has become a norm for a lot of them, whether they are in the public gaze or not. It is narcissistic and self absorbed and feels like we have gone backwards. I agree it is probably not for the male gaze but it is for anyone's gaze - look at me, look at me, and leave a positive comment so that my ego gets stroked some more.

No I know that. My point was that we instantly dismiss people based on their selfies and totally ignore the good they have done. They can't win. Look at the absolute trouncing Peaches got when she started up about babies development -Gi Fletcher does the same but because she is the partner of a celebrity and doesnt pose in underwear it's OK. Granted she's now a celebrity in her own right but we don't give celebs children that chance.

I agree to an extent about Holden and co but that's a different argument.

@HerselfIndoors

Re the female gaze, yes that is true too. A lot of it is about other women approving and rating the poster's attractiveness. But I think one big reason we want to see other women's bodies is to compare with ourselves and to find them "inspirational" or otherwise.

If you think about it, why look at women's bodies, approve women's bodies, praise other women for showing off their bodies etc etc ad nauseam, when this is not something men do (at lease not anywhere near the same extent)? I'd argue it's because we're all immersed in a society where that message and values are soaking into us all the time - that the attractiveness and display of your body, as a woman, is important.

Men's way of communicating is to banter, rip each other and not show emotion. There is a new emerging group of male celebs that do build otjers up but most of the time they too are.criticised.

Women's currency seems to be how they look, not what they can do or accomplish. It has been ever thus. And despite the feminist movement it is getting worse. And females, in greater numbers, whatever their age or shape, are perpetuating that.

I don't really know Little Mix, I am not their demographic, but whenever I saw pictures of them, I saw a lot of sexualised dancing and costumes. If you look at a boy band like JLS, they came up via the same route. Did they have to go through this crotch grabbing, pouting, soft porn styling to get their music made?

@Melange99

Women's currency seems to be how they look, not what they can do or accomplish. It has been ever thus. And despite the feminist movement it is getting worse. And females, in greater numbers, whatever their age or shape, are perpetuating that.

I don't really know Little Mix, I am not their demographic, but whenever I saw pictures of them, I saw a lot of sexualised dancing and costumes. If you look at a boy band like JLS, they came up via the same route. Did they have to go through this crotch grabbing, pouting, soft porn styling to get their music made?

Women are behind men in this regard. It's only been recently that male band members are allowed to say they have a girlfriend or are shock horror gay though.

But we perpetuate this with our obsession with bodies. Adele has a phenomenal voice. Why wasn't that enough?

And before anyone thinks I'm changing my tune, I'm not. I agree with many of these points. What I don't agree with is the faux bemusement, confusion and the "Why don't they want to do something BETTER with their lives, something that meets our approval and deems them worthy in our eyes". Criticism, lecturing and judging never achieved anything. Ever. What is worthwhile is getting inside these young woman's heads and trying to figure out why - as posted earlier upthread - these women continue to engage in something that they know is destroying them and continuing the toxic society.

Lecturing seems to be one of your specialisms though @Wheresmykimchi

I don't know where that's come from Melange as I've actually agreed with most of what you've said........but I'm not lecturing at all. I think what I think, you don't have to agree. that's different to deciding that a female celebrity has no worth because you don't like that they take their kit off and they must find a better job . I don't like anything some celebrities stand for so I just don't watch them or engage with them. I don't start deciding they must get a better job and do something better with their lives.

[quote Wheresmykimchi]@Grellbunt you would complain to the governors because a school assembly played one of the best selling female artist of the decades songs? [/quote]
Yes I absolutely would. Why shouldn’t I? That’s not education in my book.

And if you’re laughing at me for doing so, then you are part of the problem.

I'm not laughing, I'm just incredulous that you think that would be top priority for governors.

They could have picked someone better, they absolutely should have done. But to complain about this.....well, each to their own.

No, kimchi, I dont think I'm "part of the problem". If you think I am then I suggest that you, and the opinions you hold, are a far greater part of "the problem" as you define it.

@longwayoff

No, kimchi, I dont think I'm "part of the problem". If you think I am then I suggest that you, and the opinions you hold, are a far greater part of "the problem" as you define it.

Sorry long way off, can you quote where I said youre part of the problem

@Wheresmykimchi

I don't know where that's come from Melange as I've actually agreed with most of what you've said........but I'm not lecturing at all. I think what I think, you don't have to agree. that's different to deciding that a female celebrity has no worth because you don't like that they take their kit off and they must find a better job . I don't like anything some celebrities stand for so I just don't watch them or engage with them. I don't start deciding they must get a better job and do something better with their lives.

But unfortunately these female ‘celebs’ rightly or wrongly are role models for our daughters, many of whom are at an impressionable age, so as mothers - or just women in general - concerned about the mental health of the next generation of course we should express our opinions on this matter. Discussing these issues and the individuals perpetuating the normalisation of soft porn is so far away from people trolling JN that the comparison should not even be made. You may be able to disengage from such images in social media, but many teenage girls do not have the life experience or critical thinking skills to be able to. So your solution of not watching or disengaging, is at best quite disingenuous as you must know that you are not the target audience for this particular ideology.

I take your point, but my original engagement in this thread was more aimed at the unecessary comments towards women and their bodies and their worth. I'm not a teenager, but I'm within 9 years of one and I work with young people and see this shit first hand every day, as I've mentioned earlier. I know I have been lucky in my life to understand that your worth is more than skin deep, thanks to some great role models and guides. But not everyone has that. And as I said, being sniffy towards, patronising or judging these girls is not the answer to suddenly getting them to wake up one day and go "ah yeah, I'm worth more than my body!" As I said before, it takes an element more of getting inside these girls heads to understand why they do what they do instead of just suggessting that they find a better career, which has been said numerous times on this thread. And women with daughters must be aware that sometimes guiding teenagers into the right decisions gets absolutely nowhere on pure "disappointment and bewilderment" alone.

CeibaTree, I think you misunderstand this response "I don't like anything some celebrities stand for so I just don't watch them or engage with them. I don't start deciding they must get a better job and do something better with their lives.".

I don't like Gemma Collins, personally. but I don't write about how I feel some of her actions are damaging to young women. I just don't watch her, or engage with her. My point in that regard was that I'm not claiming to be the patron saint of we must like everyone and never say anything or have an opinion. But I think in this day and age there is an element of knowing when to live and let live.