To think this might be the end of the Tory party?

[HermannlovesPauline]

I’m not a Tory voter but do you think being known as he party “that stole Christmas” is going to finish off the conservatives?

So much faffing and changing of direction - how will anyone trust them again?

I don't.

Starmer is not electable material yet.

I’m not a Tory voter but do you think being known as he party “that stole Christmas” is going to finish off the conservatives?

I don't think the Tory party did it all by themselves. People who think the rules don't apply to them, people who won't social distance, people who wear masks over their mouths only, people who don't wash their hands, people throwing large parties - basically people who are sticking two fingers up to the government because they want to carry on regardless.

This will be the end for Boris Johnson's credibility.

I agree with other posters that the scientists had been urging tighter restrictions for weeks. All the government needed to do was decide whether to go with the science. Boris chose to be cheaply populist with not cohesive rationale for this - and now he's u-turned, panicked and is nodding his head and agreeing with the medics - too late in the day. He does everything based on instinct, and his instincts are weak.
And Brexit is going to be a mess. Johnson thinks you can just bluster and window-dress and fudge. He's sacked his clever strategist, Cummings, who was wrong to break Covid rules, and probably not very nice, but at least somebody who can do detail and real-life risk-assessment.

Many potential leaders - Theresa May, Jeremy Hunt, Sajid Javid - would have been better than this, and surely Kier Starmer, with his serious legal mind and capacity for detail. Theresa May's Brexit deal probably was the best compromise possible and we should have gone for it, but for the power-hungry ones deriding it.
I'll be watching to see it Johnson's competitors, like Michael Gove, have something to say to betray a view on all this. Don't read the news thoroughly, daily, but Rishi Sunak seems to have gone quiet, the last fortnight. ( Maybe his advisors are telling him to stay out of the mess, and let it derail Boris. Give will be looking to see what Sunak does so he can sail on his tailcoat). At least Theresa May really believed in what she'd backed when she was being deserted and plotted against. Johnson has no strength because he almost certainly doesn't hold any genuine convictions.

@Sobeyondthehills I hope you're right and that next election its only traditional Tory voters that vote Tory. I fear people will continue to be cap doffing turkeys voting for Christmas though

I really don't understand the way people voted, I've heard all the arguments still think it's nonsensical

@inquietant I don't think it's even a case of others wanting Johnson out, I think he's had enough himself and as a said will head off to crawl under some (very well paid on the "raconteur route") rock in USA

They’re the only gender critical party left for starters genuine question

why do you believe that? They may be much quieter about it but they certainly have been the party that's presided over actual non gender critical changes occurring! They're the party that's ALLOWED trans women into women's prisons etc

Don't be fooled by apparent public comments that they're otherwise.

Far as I can tell there's no gender critical party

The virus and its effects and what needs to be done to contain it/them didn't change that drastically in a few days! Johnson panicked! Again! Not a trait anyone needs in a country's leader!

Starmer is irritating in his reluctance to say what he really thinks at times but I don't think he's a panicker.

I agree we need more cohesion on the left and less divisiveness, which Starmer is also guilty of stirring up. Corbyn certainly has his faults but focusing on trying to remove him and other further left MPs and members from labours ranks is a distraction we don't need and further serves to make the left look lacking in cohesion and more interested in in-fighting than doing the job of providing an effective opposition which we desperately need right now.

Starmer needs to bring the left together, not fragment it more.

As an "old school" lefty I am disappointed that many in the shadow cabinet have alarmingly Tory-Esque backgrounds and life experience. Very few are from genuinely working class roots and have had "real life" jobs before becoming MPs. So I fear we're headed for another "new labour" situation where we appear to have a "labour" govt, even if they do get elected, which means more right wing rule as we've had for over 40 years - and look where that's got us!

@EscapedfromGN you write like a supporter though? Why on earth do you think corbyn wouldn't have ordered the ppe necessary? Do you even follow what corbyn has commented throughout this? What other parties MPs have? I follow a load of MPs on social media (Tory included) and what they say in news reports etc many non-Tory MPs were making very sensible and accurate comments on what should have happened at various points, the likely outcome of the poor decisions made and the timing of them etc a few lesser known Tory mps were making similar comments too.

This Tory govt have made a complete balls up of covid management and Brexit among other things this is obvious to very many of us, hopefully enough of us to make a difference at the GE, the problem of course is the anti Tory vote is so split across the many other parties. Plus the voting system means that England effectively votes for the whole of the Uk!

I don't think this will be the end of the Tory party, they're like cockroaches they'd survive an apocalypse! I hope it will be the end of this particular Tory govt though I fear people, voters are still too blinkered to ALL the damage they've done even prior to Johnson becoming leader!

Sadly too many voters still vote Tory believing myths like they're better for the economy!

when he would have known he was going to do this though

I don't think he did know. I believe he panicked and reacted in a knee jerk response. This is standard Johnson!

@laudemio exactly what have they done right?! Genuinely interested to know what a poster that thinks that believes

@TheRaccoon I agree, what's pissing folk off is the last minute nature of decisions with no warnings, the uncertainty, people don't like uncertainty

The bits they have got right are the furlough scheme and payments for self employed. That has been fairly generous and swiftly bought in

There are huge numbers of employees and self employed people that have been left out of these schemes! Not to mention all those made redundant or simply left stranded as they’re on zero hours contracts etc!

It would have been quicker, cheaper and more inclusive to have instituted even a temporary universal basic income for say a year to be reviewed once things (inc Brexit!) were more settled.

I have a few in my circle who work for dwp, they don’t normally work processing claims but have been reassigned to doing so.

1 they were initially at least completely out of their depth as they didn’t know the job

2 they are less than impressed at working extremely long hours without so much as a thank you and instead regularly pulled up for even minor errors without any acknowledgment of their having been thrown in the deep end! Now I and they know they should appreciate they still have jobs but I don’t think ANYONE should be working 12-14 hour days with zero appreciation and precious little support for what they’re doing.

Just as many people have seen real positives this year as those who have suffered.

There are always positives for some in any situation - doesn't mean overall things were handled well.

The vast majority of the time it's been a case of "too little too late"

But I equally wonder about someone who would happily vote for a racist homophobe whose party has systematically demonised the poor and disabled but then draws the line when they cancel Christmas.

Yep!

As someone who's one OF the demonised sectors I find it utterly disgusting that this is where folk "draw the line" but I'm torn because if it means they no longer will vote Tory I'm happy about that.

But yes - where was their consideration for us when we were being shat on? For over a decade!

they have been the antithesis of Conservative during this, doing everything to save a minority at the expense of the majority

I'm glad you’re no longer voting Tory but I'm afraid on this you are wrong. Tories have always been the party that supports the very wealthy - a minority - over what's good for everyone else - the majority

@StockTakeAndWatermelons lives have been lost as a direct result of this govts actions that's the worst "theft" of all - and I'm talking pre covid!

I do think his actions re covid/Christmas show just how completely out of touch with ordinary peoples lives and how they plan and organise them he and his govt are. A late turnaround in such a big event is of no consequence really if you have money and a large comfortable home and the ability to mostly mitigate the issues of getting food in etc, for ordinary quite possibly already very much struggling families it's a major impact on their lives and budgets

@borntohula I agree preparing people rather than dropping it on them last min would have been far better

@Retiremental people would be far more likely to follow rules if they were:

1 clear! - Sm is FULL of the memes summing up the confusing advice, I hold a degree in English and I've had to read some of the govts advice several times to make bloody head or tail of it! It should have been clear, one syllable word messages from the start in order that children, people with English as second language and people less academically able could understand it. Much of it has been plain bloody contradictory! Or at the very least been swinging from one extreme to another so people didn't know if they were coming or going - literally!

2 - enforced! - there's been sod all policing of the rules and that's not on the police or local authorities - central govt (ironically for a Tory govt) failed to give them true authority to enforce the rules! We had a situation early in lockdown local to me where there was a major breaking of the rules and the police and council had to faff around using prior laws and the courts to get the matter AND those responsible anywhere close to dealt with in any form of justice. There was also an element of "mob rule" came into play as the local community effectively ran the main "perpetrator" "out of town" - if the authorities had been given proper effective powers to deal with lockdown breaches this and many similar situations around the country wouldn't have happened. We're a small town and this one event very likely lead to the massive (% wise) spike in cases we had a few weeks later and us having among one of the worst affected areas overall. But I know we weren't the only place that had this issue as seen in the news plus from what I heard from friends and family elsewhere in Uk. People shouldn't have been ABLE to have huge barbecues and family parties in defiance of the rules.

I recall saying on here around this time that Thatcher had many many faults but she wouldn't have pissed about! She'd have closed the borders, ENFORCED a proper lockdown and limited the spread far better than this shower of shite!

We are an island WE SHOULD have been able to take advantage of that fact (as many of our ancestors did) and protected ourselves well from an influx of infected people from January. We knew then, we knew what needed to be done and it wasn't NOT to protect ordinary people but to protect the financial hoardes and investments of the already wealthy and least likely to be affected!

@nosswith be good wouldn't it? Will never happen though same as Blair never will for gulf war

I absolutely do not think another govt would have done worse, even a different Tory govt. Total shit show led by ignorance and arrogance!

@HighSpecWhistle this isn't "evolution" though it's panic! Johnson is simply incapable of planning more than about a week ahead at most! And won't LISTEN to those who can!

And people's lives are more important than money! The economy is important but the mismanagement has also damaged the economy anyway because its IMPOSSIBLE For businesses and people to plan with every change happening last bloody minute!

It shows strength, not weakness, to go back and correct a mistake

do you REALLY believe Johnson thinks like that?!

Incompetence and panic are not "strengths" I want in a leader

The proper management of the pandemic should have been strong, clear leadership with a "slow and steady wins the race" emergence from lockdown in a graduated way.

The perception that other countries aren't also vilifying their useless leaders over this is nonsense! I have family and friends all over the world and very very few of them are NOT being critical of the governance in this matter - mainly the antipodeans are generally happy at how things have been dealt with there.

No because the government are doing the best they can with the information they have

They really really aren't

Should they have based their Christmas rules on something that was unknown?

Given it was "unknown" they should have erred on the side of caution and acted in a way that protected and not exposed the population. Caution was most definitely more advisable than unwarranted optimism in this case!

He does everything based on instinct, and his instincts are weak. totally agree

Sunak etc would have done a better job simply because it’s almost impossible to have done a worse one! The only way things could possibly have been worse is if he’d done sod all! Let the whole country carry on as normal!

Be under no illusions that Sunak is a more moderate conservative though generally speaking just look at his background and voting record he’s as Tory as they come!

@Jamiefraserskilt

Ffs, boris did not steal Christmas. A virus combined with people not following guidelines is what changed Christmas. New rules out and social media is crammed with people trying to adjust the rules to suit their personal requirements. The virus is spread by people. I guarantee those moaning the most are those who chose to adapt the rules and then wonder why they are in a tier 4 when the next town along is in tier 2. Stop waiting to be told what to do and just do it.

Exactly this

I think you might be right if there was a credible alternative.

Because in many constituencies (including mine) you could tie a blue ribbon on a baboon and the stoopid people would still vote for it.
'My' MP rarely sets foot in his constituency other than for the occasional photo op.
The toadying little yes man toes the party line and seems to be made of Teflon.

I'll vote for anyone that promises to raise the income tax for people who earn over 100k

@MrsMiaWallis

I'll vote for anyone that promises to raise the income tax for people who earn over 100k

^This....... and council tax for the higher rate bands too.

Unfortunately the Tories are as effective as the Corona virus in mutating into more evil forms.

will Nicola Sturgeon and SNP get blamed for ruining Christmas at next election or Mark Drakesford and labour ?
there is very little difference statistical between England Scotland and Wales or indeed the UK France Spain Italy , Belgium or Sweden some of these countries locked down really hard in the Spring did it make any difference to secod wave no Sweden barely locked down and it's stats are not worse ( it is a different demographic to England but is very similar to Scotland) Germany did quite well first wave results much , much worse in second wave
Viruses don't stop at borders or behave differently depending on how left / ring wing the Government is, the same complainants that we make about Boris, Nicola etc are being made in France Belgium etc by the French and Belgians not enough PPE ruining business rules that apply to people but not leaders etc etc the gilets jaunes are still protesting in France about unfairness it just doesn't make our news

I think Boris shall be replaced as leader by the next election but I don’t think this last week he has lost his credibility to his supporters to others what credibility?

I don’t think many people think he is someone who will always keep his word, who is trustworthy so I do not believe many people who have voted for him or are supportive of him

I know it’s a wish for many on the left who view the Tories to be all evil bastards to disappear but the party is going nowhere

Latest figures I saw showed a significant difference between Scotland and England in terms of infection rates - things significantly better in Scotland.

Importantly neither Drakeford or Sturgeon have done this: www.opendemocracy.net/en/national-audit-office-investigating-uk-government-covid-contracts-after-cronyism-accusations/

Wee nippys been dying to shut the borders for months now. I wouldnt vote for that useless twat in any election. The SNP are a one trick pony. All she cares about is looking good and getting another bloody indyref. She cant even fund furlough without going cap in hand to Westminster so how on earth does she think shed fund an independent scotland. She has not handled this well AT ALL.

@inquietant infection rates in Scotland maybe lower today but I was meaning overall
Belgium has the worst death rate, Scotland has worse figures for care homes but slightly better for some other areas but overall there is little difference a few weeks ago the rates in Glasgow were much higher than London

@MrsMiaWallis

I'll vote for anyone that promises to raise the income tax for people who earn over 100k

We already pay absolutely shit loads of tax! Some of our earnings are taxed at 50%!

After today I no longer think the Tory party are over - lots of bravado over Brexit done and aren’t we fanbloodytastic all over social media

@stanlet

I'll vote for anyone that promises to raise the income tax for people who earn over 100k*
We already pay absolutely shit loads of tax! Some of our earnings are taxed at 50%!*

Um actually...if you have two children it is actually 60% with the Child Benefit high income charge. Add on student loan repayments if you have one and that increases to 75%.

[quote MarieG10]@stanlet

I'll vote for anyone that promises to raise the income tax for people who earn over 100k*
We already pay absolutely shit loads of tax! Some of our earnings are taxed at 50%!*

Um actually...if you have two children it is actually 60% with the Child Benefit high income charge. Add on student loan repayments if you have one and that increases to 75%. [/quote]
Ok my point remains