Can a tier 4 family stay with tier 2 DM?

[ConfusedatChristmasTier4]

Help please! Is there a lawyer in the house?

We’ve read the government guidance and have ascertained that we can visit my DM, because we’re in her support bubble, but can we stay overnight? It doesn’t seem to be clear.

YABU = no
YANBU = yes

@ConfusedatChristmasTier4 how long would you be planning to stay? Would your children be happy to stay in a flat and not go for a walk or play outside?

@AldiAisleofCrap - it may not be confusing for you but it is for me. People have different mental abilities. Evidenced by the fact I was not the only one to find it confusing.

[quote AldiAisleofCrap]**@UndertheCedartree* it’s really not, if you are in a suppot* bubble you are as one household you can go between any tiers. I don’t know how the government could have made it any clearer.[/quote]
You're not quite as one household. If anyone has symptoms you do have to isolate as seprrate households.

@oblada

Yes of course you are allowed as support bubble effectively become 1 household. Thats pretty simple to me though I agree the guidance is ridiculously drafted. I wouldn't judge you for going. Make your own risk assessment. You are following the rules.

@oblada Thank you! I’ve assessed our risk to be low as in the last 2 weeks all 4 of us have had maximum 1 minute of interaction with another person and always worn masks. I think if we decide our trip is legal we will go. I have a friend who is a solicitor who says it’s fine. Still pondering though!

[quote ineedaholidaynow]@ConfusedatChristmasTier4 how long would you be planning to stay? Would your children be happy to stay in a flat and not go for a walk or play outside?[/quote]
@ineedaholidaynow 2 days. Kids are teenagers so would happily stay in their beds on their devices all day!

I need a holiday too!

@Bloodybackpain

I think it’s clear the support bubbles remain across the tiers but it’s just the staying overnight bit that’s not exactly clear. It’s almost as if they drafted the guidance and legislation on the hurry up

@Bloodybackpain totally! I hope your back is not too bad by the way

Have you read the updated Tier 4 guidance? It’s much clearer than it was:

Travelling out of a Tier 4 area
You must stay at home and not leave your Tier 4 area, other than for legally permitted reasons such as:

[...]
visit (including staying overnight with) those in your support bubble - or your childcare bubble for childcare

www.gov.uk/guidance/tier-4-stay-at-home

@GooseberryJam

she doesn’t have to mix with anyone

But does she actually mix with anyone, even so? My dad, after developing Alzheimer's, told me often that he hadn't seen anyone, that carers hadn't called, or conversely that people had come, when they hadn't. I couldn't rely on what he told me, and I often found out the truth from other people. Sometimes it was about covering for the fact he couldn't remember people's names as well as events, so he told me the names he could remember, or just said he'd seen no one because he couldn't remember the name of the person he had seen. It was very difficult. What it also means is that you can't be sure your mum won't be in contact with others and that your Tier 4 possible infections won't be passed around a retirement residence.

Like you, I was caring for my dad at a distance, doing washing, appointments, shopping. My dad also didn't want carers. The point came when I couldn't go along with that because no matter what he said, he wasn't able to manage without more help day to day than I could give. That's something I feel you should think about. Don't know if your mum can buy services like laundry in at her retirement accommodation. I was told that it's very common for older people to refuse help and say their kids will do it all - no matter how impractical that is - but that doesn't mean it's actually best for them.

@GooseberryJam so sorry to hear about your Dad. It’s such a horrible illness isn’t it? My mum hasn’t been too bad, just problems with her memory, but I think she’s been deteriorating lately in terms of her mental health. I’m thinking of quitting my job so I can go up more. Generally she’s ok looking after herself it’s things like going for appointments she might forget to go or forget what’s been said. And I know it will only get worse 😢

My big concerns about Christmas are that this may be the last one when she knows what’s going on, plus we will have all the food and are taking it to her. If we don’t go she’ll be having a microwave ready meal as her Christmas dinner 😢 And I know it’s not the end of the world and there’s lots more worse stuff going on, but she’s my mum y’know and she always made Christmas magical for us.

[quote CrochetOrBust]Have you read the updated Tier 4 guidance? It’s much clearer than it was:

Travelling out of a Tier 4 area
You must stay at home and not leave your Tier 4 area, other than for legally permitted reasons such as:

[...]
visit (including staying overnight with) those in your support bubble - or your childcare bubble for childcare

www.gov.uk/guidance/tier-4-stay-at-home[/quote]
@CrochetOrBust omg thank you so much for sharing that! That is perfectly clear! I’m crying writing this I’m so happy!

Yes but I really think if she can come to you that would be better risk wise for the country

@Newmumatlast

Yes but I really think if she can come to you that would be better risk wise for the country

@Newmumatlast I wish she would! But she’s disabled and couldn’t do the journey sadly.

Thinking there’s a back story to your username, can I offer you congratulations? Took us ages too (if that’s the story), so so worth it in the end.

How long have the teenagers been off school?

Whether support bubbles are exempt or not from travel and over night stays under Tier 4, why not just use your own judgement to assess if you really should be travelling and staying over with your DM when you could potentially spread covid to both your mum and a Tier 2 area. Why not just think that through? Are you going to do it anyway regardless?

@ineedaholidaynow

How long have the teenagers been off school?

Since 11 December

@confusedatchristmastier4

Yes there is a back story and a very happy ending :) thank you.

And if she can't travel you've no option but to go to her x

@Newmumatlast congratulations and Happy Christmas!

@Riv

"You cannot leave home for holidays or stays overnight away from your main home unless permitted by law. This means that holidays in the UK and abroad are not allowed. This includes staying in a second home or caravan, or staying with anyone you do not live with or are in a support bubble with." Lets turn this into slightly plainer English (says the ex English teacher.) You can not leave home to go on holiday. You can only stay overnight in the home you usually live in. To clarify: you can not go away on holiday anywhere - You can't go on holiday in the UK, You can not go on holiday abroad. You can not stay overnight in your second home, a holiday home or a caravan. You can only stay overnight in your house with the people that normally live in your house. You can not stay overnight at anyone else's house. You can not have anyone else stay over in your house. There are some exceptions. These are laid down in law. One of the main exceptions is if you are in a support bubble with someone. If you are, you are counted as being the same household, therefore you can stay overnight with them.

This. Great clarification.

Yes you can.

Not everybody can form a support bubble. However, on 2 December the rules changed to widen eligibility for forming one.

You can form a support bubble with another household of any size if:

you live by yourself – even if carers visit you to provide support
you are the only adult in your household who does not need continuous care as a result of a disability
your household includes a child who is under the age of one or was under that age on 2 December 2020
your household includes a child with a disability who requires continuous care and is under the age of 5, or was under that age on 2 December 2020
you are aged 16 or 17 living with others of the same age and without any adults
you are a single adult living with one or more children who are under the age of 18 or were under that age on 12 June 2020
You should not form a support bubble with a household that is part of another support bubble