Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Can a tier 4 family stay with tier 2 DM?

194 replies

ConfusedatChristmasTier4 · 19/12/2020 21:18

Help please! Is there a lawyer in the house?

We’ve read the government guidance and have ascertained that we can visit my DM, because we’re in her support bubble, but can we stay overnight? It doesn’t seem to be clear.

YABU = no
YANBU = yes

OP posts:
Haffiana · 19/12/2020 21:54

@Dragonglass

Even those in support bubbles are not allowed to stay overnight.

From gov.uk:

'You cannot leave home for holidays or stays overnight away from your main home unless permitted by law. This means that holidays in the UK and abroad are not allowed. This includes staying in a second home or caravan, or staying with anyone you do not live with or are in a support bubble with.'

Actually it says the opposite. It is a question of grammar...

What it says is that you CANNOT stay with anyone who you are NOT in a support bubble with.

So you CAN stay with someone you ARE in a support bubble with.

LearnedResponse · 19/12/2020 21:55

That quote is unfortunately worded but I read it as meaning that you can’t stay overnight with anyone unless you’re in the same household or in a support bubble with them.

CeeceeBloomingdale · 19/12/2020 21:55

@limpolo

They are not exempt though
Yes they are, you have literally just quoted the guidance where they are shown to be exempt
BillysMyBunny · 19/12/2020 21:56

This includes staying in a second home or caravan, or staying with anyone you do not live with or are in a support bubble with.

This sentence is a bit problematic as it’s not completely clear if it means you cannot stay with anyone unless you live with them/ are in their support bubble or if it means you cannot stay in second homes/ caravans or with people whom your in a support bubble with.

If it is okay to be in a support bubble and stay with people it’s also a bit confusing if they’re in different tiers; if a support bubble is one household then if one half is Tier 1 and the other Tier 4 do the half in Tier 1 have to follow Tier 4 rules because technically part of their bubble/ household is in Tier 4?

lyralalala · 19/12/2020 21:57

@Coffeeandcrumpet

How exactly are you in a support bubble if you would have to travel to her?
How do you think disabled and vulnerable people get support if it doesn't involve people travelling to them?
Signalbox · 19/12/2020 21:58

According to the new rules you can visit but not stay overnight.

Staying away from home overnight
You cannot leave home for holidays or stays overnight away from your main home unless permitted by law. This means that holidays in the UK and abroad are not allowed. This includes staying in a second home or caravan, or staying with anyone you do not live with or are in a support bubble with.

DoThePropeller · 19/12/2020 21:58

It’s a poorly written sentence but you can stay, you are effectively one household if you are in a support bubble.

limpolo · 19/12/2020 21:59

I don't think that is what it is saying at all.

Travelling out of tier 4 is not allowed and t h is the whole point of this. If people are travelling out of tries it's going to spread.

multivac · 19/12/2020 22:00

FFS. The guidance quoted shows that overnight stays within a support bubble are permitted, regardless of relative tiers. This has been the case throughout: support bubbles are to be treated as a single household.

CeeceeBloomingdale · 19/12/2020 22:00

In England, single adults living alone - or single parents whose children are under 18 - can form a support bubble with one other household.

The second household can be of any size and can include "at risk" peoplewho were previously shielding.

Wherever possible, the government recommends that a support bubble should be with another local household to avoid unnecessary travel. Anyone in the bubble contacted as part of England'stest and trace programmemust stay at home. If they develop coronavirus symptoms, everyone in the bubble must self-isolate.

Underthe tier system, people are allowed to form support bubbles with those who live in a higher tier area, and bubbles can be cross-border with Scotland and Wales, subject to local restrictions.

Barmyfarmy · 19/12/2020 22:01

OP although there are some sources saying you can go, you really need to consider if you should. Travelling from a tier 4 to tier 2 is extremely dangerous and you should be very cautious when deciding whether it's worth risking your mother's life to see her, or whether you can wait until things are a little safer. I know it's difficult but you have to do what is right and that's not always what we want.
There is support available through charities and organisations for your mother if she is alone for Christmas. Or she may be able to form a safer support bubble with someone nearer to her.

Haffiana · 19/12/2020 22:01

It really highlights the importance of English language lessons.

And in clearly written guidelines!

Original poster
ConfusedatChristmasTier4 · 19/12/2020 22:01

Sorry I didn’t word it very well. We are her support bubble (well it’s mainly me - I travel to her every fortnight to help her out).

I have read that bit of guidance PPs are quoting about 20 times and I can’t make out whether it means that you can or can’t stay with the person you’re in a support bubble with. Because if you can’t, what is the point of the words “or are in a support bubble with” at the end of the sentence?

OP posts:
Ethelswith · 19/12/2020 22:03

If you live in a tier 4 area, but are already staying in a different tier (in circs that were perfectly OK until this comes in) can you remain for your original intended length of stay? Or do you have to return at first opportunity?

Original poster
ConfusedatChristmasTier4 · 19/12/2020 22:03

@Barmyfarmy

OP although there are some sources saying you can go, you really need to consider if you should. Travelling from a tier 4 to tier 2 is extremely dangerous and you should be very cautious when deciding whether it's worth risking your mother's life to see her, or whether you can wait until things are a little safer. I know it's difficult but you have to do what is right and that's not always what we want. There is support available through charities and organisations for your mother if she is alone for Christmas. Or she may be able to form a safer support bubble with someone nearer to her.
We have been considering the safety aspect and we have been really careful, DH and I both WFH and both kids have been off school all week thank God so we haven’t really seen anyone. Poor DM is desperate to see us, she has Alzheimer’s and other health problems so it might be our last chance to celebrate properly 😢
OP posts:
limpolo · 19/12/2020 22:04

I think that's the point of adding it to the end as it's included in the list of things you cannot do...

WeeDangerousSpike · 19/12/2020 22:04

The quotes are saying the opposite of what the quoing posters think they do, surely!

I'm reading it as a list, like this:

... or staying with anyone you do not
*live with
*or are in a support bubble with.

So you can stay overnight with people you live with or are in a support bubble with.

I would be asking myself if it's sensible to travel from tier 4 to see someone in a vulnerable age group though OP, regardless of legality.

Haffiana · 19/12/2020 22:05

@ConfusedatChristmasTier4

Sorry I didn’t word it very well. We are her support bubble (well it’s mainly me - I travel to her every fortnight to help her out).

I have read that bit of guidance PPs are quoting about 20 times and I can’t make out whether it means that you can or can’t stay with the person you’re in a support bubble with. Because if you can’t, what is the point of the words “or are in a support bubble with” at the end of the sentence?

What it says is that you CANNOT stay with anyone who you are NOT in a support bubble with.

So you CAN stay with someone you ARE in a support bubble with.

Original poster
ConfusedatChristmasTier4 · 19/12/2020 22:05

We can’t just go anyway if it’s not permitted as she lives in a retirement apartment so we might not get past the manager’s office!

OP posts:
Signalbox · 19/12/2020 22:06

I have to say the more I read it the less clear it become :D

RenegadeMrs · 19/12/2020 22:06

It is a terribly worded paragraph. The govt really could do with getting on board with the plain English campaign to help get their message across.

InglouriousBasterd · 19/12/2020 22:07

Yes you can - but that is worded appallingly for such important guidance!

pilates · 19/12/2020 22:07

On gov website:-

If you form a support bubble, it is best if this is with a household who live locally. This will help prevent the virus spreading from an area where more people are infected.

starsinyourpies · 19/12/2020 22:08

We have been having the same conversation. MIL is in tier 4, we have been her support bubble. This from the page linked above seems to indicate that it's allowed but we are still weighing up the risk.

If you live in a Tier 4 area, you must follow the rules below from Sunday 20 December. This means that you cannot meet other people indoors, including over the Christmas period, unless you live with them, or they are part of your existing support bubble.

CeeceeBloomingdale · 19/12/2020 22:08

@WeeDangerousSpike

The quotes are saying the opposite of what the quoing posters think they do, surely!

I'm reading it as a list, like this:

... or staying with anyone you do not
*live with
*or are in a support bubble with.

So you can stay overnight with people you live with or are in a support bubble with.

I would be asking myself if it's sensible to travel from tier 4 to see someone in a vulnerable age group though OP, regardless of legality.

I concur with your interpretation and advice. You very clearly can. Whether you should is more the issue.