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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Can a tier 4 family stay with tier 2 DM?

194 replies

ConfusedatChristmasTier4 · 19/12/2020 21:18

Help please! Is there a lawyer in the house?

We’ve read the government guidance and have ascertained that we can visit my DM, because we’re in her support bubble, but can we stay overnight? It doesn’t seem to be clear.

YABU = no
YANBU = yes

OP posts:
RichardMarxisinnocent · 20/12/2020 00:12

@movingonup20

You can stay with your support bubble but you are not meant to travel out of your tier except for very specific reasons so unless your dm requires care whilst staying there isn't an issue, traveling to tier 2 is. Do you really want to risk taking the virus to your mum anyway?
And one of those specific reasons is to visit your support bubble.
CountreeGurl · 20/12/2020 00:13

Bizarrely you can in private rented accommodation but not in their house, which seems frankly ridiculous

Original poster
ConfusedatChristmasTier4 · 20/12/2020 00:32

@MrsElijahMikaelson1

We are in tier 2 and literally 2 streets away from MIL and she won’t see us... I think it’s really irresponsible to go from tier 4 to tier 2. You’re really not that much of a support bubble if you only see her every couple of weeks-that’s just playing on words IMO. We truly are a support to MIL and we are still trying to protect her.
Pretty impressive that we’d got to page 5 before someone came on here to judge me for not being much of a support to my mum. I work and I have 2 kids, and I visit my mum every 2 weeks to help her with washing, shopping and taking her to her many medical appointments.

She currently refuses to have carers.

In answer to other questions, her apartment is very self-contained, she doesn’t have to mix with anyone, and there’s room enough for us all to stay there. We literally pass through an entrance and go up the stairs, and normally just see a manager from a distance, unless they come over for a chat.

OP posts:
Newkitchen123 · 20/12/2020 00:33

You see her once a fortnight so who does she see in between? Anyone? No one?
To be honest I would be very surprised if the manager allowed it.

saraclara · 20/12/2020 00:41

@ViciousJackdaw

From www.gov.uk/guidance/tier-4-stay-at-home

You cannot leave home for holidays or stays overnight away from your main home unless permitted by law. This means that holidays in the UK and abroad are not allowed. This includes staying in a second home or caravan, or staying with anyone you do not live with or are in a support bubble with

No can do, sorry.

That quote says the opposite of what you think it does.
CeeceeBloomingdale · 20/12/2020 01:56

@WeAllHaveWings

"There is a lot of purposeful "misunderstanding" on this thread. The message is crystal clear op. You cannot stay overnight"

Ironically I'm not the one misunderstanding. It's basic English, you CAN stay overnight with your support bubble. I have no need to purposefully "misunderstand". I'm not planning to stay with anyone, nor am I in tier 4, but I can read.

ClarenceBoddicker · 20/12/2020 02:05

I’m allowed to move home, or set up a bubble, before the Corona Police decide to monitor me.

ineedaholidaynow · 20/12/2020 02:21

If you are genuinely going for support only you need to go and do her washing etc to reduce the risk even further. The whole family doesn’t have to rock up

BiarritzCrackers · 20/12/2020 02:27

It's the rule that you can stay. Support bubbles are unaffected.

You may not engage in, "staying with anyone you do not live with or are in a support bubble with". Yes, badly written. Add in bullets and a colon, not changing the wording, makes it:

"staying with anyone you do not:
a) live with or
b) are in a support bubble with"

Makes it clearer, without rewriting it. I imagine, however, they will be rewriting it...

BiarritzCrackers · 20/12/2020 02:34

okay, those aren't bullets, but you get the picture.

At least one thing that has been consistent and predictable is that the comms from this govt have been confusing and unhelpful throughout. As an example, the announcement was ten hours ago, and this .gov page still says you can form three household Christmas bubbles.

www.gov.uk/guidance/making-a-support-bubble-with-another-household

musicalfrog · 20/12/2020 06:55

Yes you most certainly can stay overnight. Support bubbles are classed as single households and have always been allowed to stay overnight with each other. This has not changed, regardless of tiers.

Agree the guidance is poorly worded and allows for incorrect interpretation (I read it wrong the first few times) however my first paragraph is the correct interpretation. I'm not in anyone's support bubble but it pains me that so many people are finding themselves in such a quandary right now when there is no need for it.

Support bubbles are not in place to support physical care needs btw. They are to protect mental health and avoid social isolation. So to anyone bleating about taking the virus with you. STFU!!

yearinyearout · 20/12/2020 07:12

The lack of understanding is terrifying

No, it's still the lack of clear grammar on a government website that's terrifying

moomin11 · 20/12/2020 07:47

@Newkitchen123

You see her once a fortnight so who does she see in between? Anyone? No one? To be honest I would be very surprised if the manager allowed it.
That has nothing to do with the question being asked.
Newkitchen123 · 20/12/2020 09:09

@moomin11
Yes it does because if she sees others they are her bubble and you can't be in more than one support bubble

ineedaholidaynow · 20/12/2020 09:14

@musicalfrog you can’t ignore the fact that you may take the virus with you. It is a risk you take when you form a bubble with anyone.

LoveMyKidsAndCats · 20/12/2020 09:15

You are in tier 4 and want to go and stay with your mother in a retirement complex?!?

moomin11 · 20/12/2020 09:16

[quote Newkitchen123]@moomin11
Yes it does because if she sees others they are her bubble and you can't be in more than one support bubble[/quote]
Fair enough if that's the point you were trying to make but it didn't come across that way.

musicalfrog · 20/12/2020 09:22

[quote ineedaholidaynow]@musicalfrog you can’t ignore the fact that you may take the virus with you. It is a risk you take when you form a bubble with anyone.[/quote]
It's a balance of risk. There are other risks out there than just covid. Too many people are forgetting that.

Newkitchen123 · 20/12/2020 09:24

@moomin11
That's why I asked anyone or no one?
It's very relevant

Weedsnseeds1 · 20/12/2020 09:41

A support bubble is counted as one household. It doesn't matter which tier the two households comprising the bubble are in, they are one household and can stay with each other.
Tier 4 are not allowed to holiday in UK or abroad. Therefore a tier 2 + 4 bubble cannot e. g. Rent a holiday cottage together (although a tier 2 + tier 2 bubble, for example, could.
However the tier 4 + tier 2 bubble can stay in each other's houses as they are, legally, one household.
The guidance is perfectly clear to me.
The list of people legally allowed to stay away from tier 4 is separate to the support bubble. You don't have to be in a bubble with an elete athlete or a construction worker.

nicebreeze · 20/12/2020 09:49

@Dragonglass

Even those in support bubbles are not allowed to stay overnight.

From gov.uk:

'You cannot leave home for holidays or stays overnight away from your main home unless permitted by law. This means that holidays in the UK and abroad are not allowed. This includes staying in a second home or caravan, or staying with anyone you do not live with or are in a support bubble with.'

I read this that you can't stay overnight with people not in a support bubble... ie you can if you're in a support bubble
StealthPolarBear · 20/12/2020 09:53

I agree the guidance is saying you CAN stay with people you are in a support bubble

moomin11 · 20/12/2020 10:23

[quote Newkitchen123]@moomin11
That's why I asked anyone or no one?
It's very relevant[/quote]
I read it as being a bit judgy but accept it was a genuine question. To be fair the OP wasn't asking for clarification of how a support bubble works, she was just asking if they can stay overnight...

HunkyPunk · 20/12/2020 10:43

I find it quite frightening that the paragraph in question is so badly constructed and unclear, that 78% of people who voted, think it means the opposite of what it actually means.

You are allowed to stay overnight with another household if you are in a support bubble with that household. That has always been the case. The government is not saying that vulnerable single households have to suck it up and remain on their own. That would be untenable.

HunkyPunk · 20/12/2020 10:45

And the fact that so many people think that would be ok, because 'rules are rules' is also quite frightening.