Can a tier 4 family stay with tier 2 DM?

[ConfusedatChristmasTier4]

Help please! Is there a lawyer in the house?

We’ve read the government guidance and have ascertained that we can visit my DM, because we’re in her support bubble, but can we stay overnight? It doesn’t seem to be clear.

YABU = no
YANBU = yes

No, unless you leave tier 4 before midnight.

This includes staying in a second home or caravan, or staying with anyone you do not live with or are in a support bubble with.

This sentence isn’t going to be winning any awards for plain English.

I would read it as yes. People you live with and people people who are in a support bubble with you are one group of people. They seem to have made it difficult to work out which bits of that sentence go together.

The lack of understanding is terrifying

@Haffiana - you're so right!

@ConfusedatChristmasTier4 - This includes staying in a second home or caravan, or staying with anyone you do not live with or are in a support bubble with.

This is so badly worded, but it means that you can see people you live with and people you're in a bubble with overnight. The above would be better worded as

This includes staying in a second home or caravan. You can stay with anyone you live with or are in a support bubble with.

Much clearer!

But I don't know if you can travel from tier 4 to tier 2. Should you??

F

What it says is that you CANNOT stay with anyone who you are NOT in a support bubble with

It doesn't say "NOT" though does it?
But it would make more sense if it did...

This includes staying in a second home or caravan, or staying with anyone you do not live with or are NOT in a support bubble with

This includes staying in a second home or caravan, or staying with anyone outside your household. Your household includes anyone you live with or are in a support bubble with.

That would work too.

Forget the rules, think about the risk. If you are in Tier 4, there is a real risk that you will infect her with Covid. The longer you stay, the higher the risk.

[quote tenlittlecygnets]@Haffiana - you're so right!

@ConfusedatChristmasTier4 - This includes staying in a second home or caravan, or staying with anyone you do not live with or are in a support bubble with.

This is so badly worded, but it means that you can see people you live with and people you're in a bubble with overnight. The above would be better worded as

This includes staying in a second home or caravan. You can stay with anyone you live with or are in a support bubble with.

Much clearer!

But I don't know if you can travel from tier 4 to tier 2. Should you??
[/quote]
You definitely can travel out of tier 4 to visit another area in some circumstances, and a support bubble is one of them. That part of the guidance is clearer. It’s the staying over that I just can’t make out.

The newly published guidance allows travel out of a tier 4 area to see other people in your support bubble. The new legislation hasn’t been published yet so isn’t law at the moment and no one knows what exemptions it will include. Supposedly it is being published in the morning and will become law sometime afterwards.
People are still allowed to stay overnight with members of their support bubble as they are considered to be one household. Some people on the thread are misreading the guidance, which is not very clearly written.

You can, it's up to you whether you should. We live in tier 2, 20mins from tier 4. My mum is in tier 2 with us but if she was just over the border I would absolutely be treating it the same, including staying over night. If she was 100 miles away I might think twice. But in the situation you described I think I would go for it.

@CeeceeBloomingdale

The lack of understanding is terrifying

There is a lot of purposeful "misunderstanding" on this thread. The message is crystal clear op. You cannot stay overnight,

So you can stay there as long as you aren't there from 23.59 to 00.01?

Just stay at home for one year , it’s not rocket science
Why has Boris and the press made this such a confusing mess
Idiots

Yes you can. Support bubbles are totally separate from the Tier system.

From the guidance:

Travelling out of a tier 4 area

You must stay at home and not leave your Tier 4 area, other than for legally permitted reasons such as:

travel to work where you cannot work from home
travel to education and for caring responsibilities
visit those in your support bubble - or your childcare bubble for childcare
attend hospital, GP and other medical appointments or visits where you have had an accident or are concerned about your health

Presumably only the person offering the support can go though? Not the whole family for a Xmas visit? (Not suggesting that's what you're doing btw!)

@Signalbox

I have to say the more I read it the less clear it become :D

@Signalbox that’s exactly how I feel!

To confirm, there is NO RESTRICTION IN SUPPORT BUBBLES - you are considered one household and are treated in all areas of England as if you all live under one roof.

@SarahMused

The newly published guidance allows travel out of a tier 4 area to see other people in your support bubble. The new legislation hasn’t been published yet so isn’t law at the moment and no one knows what exemptions it will include. Supposedly it is being published in the morning and will become law sometime afterwards. People are still allowed to stay overnight with members of their support bubble as they are considered to be one household. Some people on the thread are misreading the guidance, which is not very clearly written.

That’s helpful to know the new legislation should be published that soon, thank you. I’m hoping that will be clearer, but my husband whose job it has been lately to interpret this stuff for trading standards thinks I am deluded!

More from the Tier 4 guidance:

Staying away from home overnight

You cannot leave home for holidays or stays overnight away from your main home unless permitted by law. This means that holidays in the UK and abroad are not allowed. This includes staying in a second home or caravan, or staying with anyone you do not live with or are in a support bubble with.

SO GOING TO STAY WITH YOUR SUPPORT BUBBLE IS PERMITTED. IT IS ONE OF THE 'PERMITTED BY LAW' EXCEPTIONS.

Sorry I can see that other people have posted the same parts of the guidance whilst I was wearing out my caps lock.

But yes, it is legal. Support bubbles are always considered as one household regardless of physical distance.

Go and see her if she wants you to it’s her that’s a risk. I would recommend she quatinines for a few days free just so that in VERY unique situation you could spread it that I won’t leave her home. This is if she’s desperate to see you though. Or you could f it and have a great Christmas

[quote LilacSloth]Staying away from home overnight

You cannot leave home for holidays or stays overnight away from your main home unless permitted by law. This means that holidays in the UK and abroad are not allowed. This includes staying in a second home or caravan, or staying with anyone you do not live with or are in a support bubble with.

www.gov.uk/guidance/tier-4-stay-at-home[/quote]
How have so many people misunderstood this?!

Your support bubble is effectively one household so yes you can stay overnight,

The bit of legislation you quoted is clear in that.

Oh, I’ve just realised, it should say “aren’t”. What a mess.

If someone has a support bubble with another family then they are treated as a single household for all purposes- staying overnight etc. Therefore if you and your mother are in a support bubble you can do whatever with her that you do with your nuclear family.