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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Can a tier 4 family stay with tier 2 DM?

194 replies

ConfusedatChristmasTier4 · 19/12/2020 21:18

Help please! Is there a lawyer in the house?

We’ve read the government guidance and have ascertained that we can visit my DM, because we’re in her support bubble, but can we stay overnight? It doesn’t seem to be clear.

YABU = no
YANBU = yes

OP posts:
Newkitchen123 · 20/12/2020 11:07

I'm really torn on this one because it looks like the rules say it's OK but I actually think they shouldn't go. My heart goes out to you OP. I lost my beloved dad at the start of all this, not from covid but lockdown robbed us of 4 precious weeks at the end of his life when he wanted his family the most.

ineedaholidaynow · 20/12/2020 11:21

My DM lives in a block of retirement flats, she is in Tier 2. I would be seriously unimpressed if a family of 4 from Tier 4 rocked up to stay. These flats have communal areas, you are likely to bump into other residents. Are you saying that you would turn up and then stay in and never come out of the flat until it is time you left.

LolaSmiles · 20/12/2020 11:28

And the fact that so many people think that would be ok, because 'rules are rules' is also quite frightening
I suppose there is a difference between being legally allowed to do something and it being a good idea.

There's always the minority who think they are too damn special to follow rules and they would do what they want regardless, but most people are reasonable.Had the government had a clear policy and sensible messages then the reasonable people would probably have a bit more faith in limiting contact a bit more because they'd feel confident that in a couple of months life would start getting back to normal. Unfortunately our prime minister is so useless, bordering on negligent, that reasonable people are starting to feel like they have to make the most of what tiny glimmers of family contact they can.

D4rwin · 20/12/2020 11:30

Yes you can. Shouldn't. But I've got a tenner not one Brit will give a shiny shit. All for a crappy mince pie.

StealthPolarBear · 20/12/2020 11:32

@HunkyPunk

I find it quite frightening that the paragraph in question is so badly constructed and unclear, that 78% of people who voted, think it means the opposite of what it actually means.

You are allowed to stay overnight with another household if you are in a support bubble with that household. That has always been the case. The government is not saying that vulnerable single households have to suck it up and remain on their own. That would be untenable.

Yes. It's unbelievable that the guidance would be written so badly.
ineedaholidaynow · 20/12/2020 11:36

It is awful (but possibly not surprising) that the guidance is so badly written

Glitterblue · 20/12/2020 11:37

It's very clear to me that the paragraph means you ARE allowed to stay with someone you're in a support bubble with, but I can see why people are struggling with it. They should have set it out as a list of what is and is not allowed.

The thing is, sometimes even though things are allowed in the rules, it's not sensible to do those things. We have to weigh up what's going to be safest for all concerned and anyone else we may come into contact with, and also the impact a visit would have on a person for their mental well-being, and if it truly is likely to be their last Christmas.

As a family, we'd decided already not to get together for Christmas. Everyone we'd be seeing is at present fit and healthy, but my parents and MiL are all mid to late 70s so would be more at risk if they were to get covid. We don't have any reason to think they won't all be here next christmas, although I know nothing is guaranteed. So we've decided not getting together for this year is the best course of action.

OP, it's a tricky one for you, I can absolutely see why you want to spend it with your mum, I would too - but the difference in tiers and the fact she's in a retirement complex makes it more difficult. You're allowed to do it but you'd need to think about how safe it would be for your mum and all the people who live around her.

Pumpkintopf · 20/12/2020 11:44

Here's the statutory instrument if useful-

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1611/contents/made

I agree with pp who have said support bubbles are exempt, you can visit and you can stay.

FlappingPancakes · 20/12/2020 11:57

Thanks that's useful @Pumpkintopf

HunkyPunk · 20/12/2020 12:42

@D4rwin

Yes you can. Shouldn't. But I've got a tenner not one Brit will give a shiny shit. All for a crappy mince pie.
Or for a crumb of comfort for a vulnerable person in their own?
ineedaholidaynow · 20/12/2020 12:48

@HunkyPunk but the whole family don’t have to rock up to stay for a few days.

HunkyPunk · 20/12/2020 12:49

*on

GooseberryJam · 20/12/2020 12:50

she doesn’t have to mix with anyone

But does she actually mix with anyone, even so? My dad, after developing Alzheimer's, told me often that he hadn't seen anyone, that carers hadn't called, or conversely that people had come, when they hadn't. I couldn't rely on what he told me, and I often found out the truth from other people. Sometimes it was about covering for the fact he couldn't remember people's names as well as events, so he told me the names he could remember, or just said he'd seen no one because he couldn't remember the name of the person he had seen. It was very difficult. What it also means is that you can't be sure your mum won't be in contact with others and that your Tier 4 possible infections won't be passed around a retirement residence.

Like you, I was caring for my dad at a distance, doing washing, appointments, shopping. My dad also didn't want carers. The point came when I couldn't go along with that because no matter what he said, he wasn't able to manage without more help day to day than I could give. That's something I feel you should think about. Don't know if your mum can buy services like laundry in at her retirement accommodation. I was told that it's very common for older people to refuse help and say their kids will do it all - no matter how impractical that is - but that doesn't mean it's actually best for them.

Bloodybackpain · 20/12/2020 13:49

@Pumpkintopf thank you for the link to the SI. I’ve had a good look through it and I can see the linked households ie support bubbles are still permitted whatever tier you’re all in but just cannot see anything expressly about staying overnight ... how would you say it’s still allowed?
The only way I can see it’s allowed is by saying a linked household is as if it’s one household and so that must naturally include staying with each other
Or it talks about meeting your linked households as a permitted gathering - but then I can’t find a definition of gathering!

Pumpkintopf · 20/12/2020 14:30

@Bloodybackpain yes I agree I think it's because once you're in a support bubble it's as if you are one household.

cologne4711 · 20/12/2020 14:55

OP if you are your DM's support bubble you can go. Why should those without relatives or friends close by have to stay on their own when those whose relatives are close by can see them and have probably seen them all along anyway?

It's much safer to stay overnight than it is to go for the day, and then drive back in the dark having quite possibly had some alcohol to drink. I do wonder how many more drunk drivers we're going to have Christmas night. Of course people shouldn't, but they will.

Bloodybackpain · 20/12/2020 14:58

@Pumpkintopf thank you, I’ve seen some news outlets saying this is permitted too now:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/health-52637354

I’m thinking if it’s not allowed then someone from govt will clarify. We aren’t due to see the other member of our support bubble until next weekend so hopefully all will be clear by then ...

Madcats · 20/12/2020 15:16

Whatever the law may/may not say I think your ability as a "family" to enter your DM's retirement complex is going to depend on what the warden has decided.

My DM is in a block of 30 and only carers are allowed in past the front lobby (but we can meet outdoors as 'family').

I would be extremely miffed to discover that a family of tier 4's were roaming 'wild and free' in and out for a few days over Christmas.

Many such residents have had a really really dull 9 months, but at least they have been able to meet up in communal areas.

Original poster
ConfusedatChristmasTier4 · 20/12/2020 19:48

@ineedaholidaynow

My DM lives in a block of retirement flats, she is in Tier 2. I would be seriously unimpressed if a family of 4 from Tier 4 rocked up to stay. These flats have communal areas, you are likely to bump into other residents. Are you saying that you would turn up and then stay in and never come out of the flat until it is time you left.
@ineedaholidaynow Yes! That is exactly what we’d do. We’d arrive in the evening when we wouldn’t see anyone and also leave in the evening. DM’s apartment is pretty big, and the communal areas are for residents only atm. So the plan is to not see anyone else and to not go out.
OP posts:
Original poster
ConfusedatChristmasTier4 · 20/12/2020 19:50

[quote Bloodybackpain]@Pumpkintopf thank you for the link to the SI. I’ve had a good look through it and I can see the linked households ie support bubbles are still permitted whatever tier you’re all in but just cannot see anything expressly about staying overnight ... how would you say it’s still allowed?
The only way I can see it’s allowed is by saying a linked household is as if it’s one household and so that must naturally include staying with each other
Or it talks about meeting your linked households as a permitted gathering - but then I can’t find a definition of gathering![/quote]
@Bloodybackpain you have described my struggle with understanding the SI and the previous ones perfectly!

OP posts:
oblada · 20/12/2020 19:54

Yes of course you are allowed as support bubble effectively become 1 household. Thats pretty simple to me though I agree the guidance is ridiculously drafted.
I wouldn't judge you for going. Make your own risk assessment. You are following the rules.

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2020 19:58

I find it so confusing! I think in theory you can stay with your support bubble but you are not meant to move outside of a Tier 4 area so don't think you can go to a Tier 2 area.

AldiAisleofCrap · 20/12/2020 20:01

@UndertheCedartree it’s really not, if you are in a suppot bubble you are as one household you can go between any tiers. I don’t know how the government could have made it any clearer.

AldiAisleofCrap · 20/12/2020 20:02

*support

Bloodybackpain · 20/12/2020 20:26

I think it’s clear the support bubbles remain across the tiers but it’s just the staying overnight bit that’s not exactly clear. It’s almost as if they drafted the guidance and legislation on the hurry up