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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Can a tier 4 family stay with tier 2 DM?

194 replies

ConfusedatChristmasTier4 · 19/12/2020 21:18

Help please! Is there a lawyer in the house?

We’ve read the government guidance and have ascertained that we can visit my DM, because we’re in her support bubble, but can we stay overnight? It doesn’t seem to be clear.

YABU = no
YANBU = yes

OP posts:
CarrieBlue · 19/12/2020 22:42

There is a lot of purposeful "misunderstanding" on this thread. The message is crystal clear op. You cannot stay overnight,

No there isn’t and yes you can

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 19/12/2020 22:42

@xxmassy

Presumably only the person offering the support can go though? Not the whole family for a Xmas visit? (Not suggesting that's what you're doing btw!)
It's not about needing to provide any actual support. Part of the reason that support bubbles were put in place was to help prevent people living alone from being isolated during periods of restriction. As such both households are considered one household unit and it works outside restrictions.

Obviously some support bubbles are there because physical or medical care is needed, but that might have been in place from the start.

Dishwashersaurous · 19/12/2020 22:44

Travelling out of a tier 4 area
You must stay at home and not leave your Tier 4 area, other than for legally permitted reasons such as:

travel to work where you cannot work from home
travel to education and for caring responsibilities
visit those in your support bubble - or your childcare bubble for childcare
attend hospital, GP and other medical appointments or visits where you have had an accident or are concerned about your health
The full list of exceptions will be published in the Regulations.

Dishwashersaurous · 19/12/2020 22:45

From gov,uk

Jaxhog · 19/12/2020 22:46

You are allowed to, if in a support bubble, but you really shouldn't do it unless absolutely necessary.

AndcalloffChristmas · 19/12/2020 22:51

You absolutely can if you’re her support bubble, and you can stay overnight. According to the rules.

Whether you should or not is another matter. You don’t want to take the virus to her, which is the main thing, so look at the actual risk rather than the rules saying “yes”.

Riv · 19/12/2020 22:51

"You cannot leave home for holidays or stays overnight away from your main home unless permitted by law. This means that holidays in the UK and abroad are not allowed. This includes staying in a second home or caravan, or staying with anyone you do not live with or are in a support bubble with."
Lets turn this into slightly plainer English (says the ex English teacher.)
You can not leave home to go on holiday.
You can only stay overnight in the home you usually live in.
To clarify: you can not go away on holiday anywhere - You can't go on holiday in the UK, You can not go on holiday abroad.
You can not stay overnight in your second home, a holiday home or a caravan.
You can only stay overnight in your house with the people that normally live in your house. You can not stay overnight at anyone else's house. You can not have anyone else stay over in your house.
There are some exceptions. These are laid down in law.
One of the main exceptions is if you are in a support bubble with someone. If you are, you are counted as being the same household, therefore you can stay overnight with them.

Dishwashersaurous · 19/12/2020 22:51

Legally 100% yes

lakesidexmas · 19/12/2020 22:52

It is very badly written.
But
Yes you can - but that is worded appallingly for such important guidance!

If you read the sentence carefully you can see that bubbles are excluded from the new rules alongside people who you stay with.

LolaSmiles · 19/12/2020 22:53

Yes you can because a support bubble is one household.

Whether you should go between a tier 4 area and tier 2, especially when the person in tier 2 lives in a retirement complex, is an entirely different matter and will depend on your circumstances, the nature of the retirement complex, how much contact you are likely to have with others in the Tier 2 area etc.

Heffle · 19/12/2020 22:55

Yes, definitely. Lots of knee jerk stuff on here OP, but yes you can. It’s e very definition of a support bubble.

Marsis · 19/12/2020 22:56

I think I would speak to the manager of the retirement home. If your DM is mixing with other residents having carers in etc it may be a risk they don’t want. It may be allowable for travel to provide care in your support bubble but it doesn’t sound like that is what you are doing? It’s a really difficult situation and I sympathise . I’m glad now we decided not to see my parents as it would be so much harder for them if we had planned to go and had to cancel as we’ve gone to T4

Icecreambythesea · 19/12/2020 22:56

There seems to be conflicting advice regarding support bubbles.

*"In Tier 4 the ‘Stay At Home’ message will be put in law. As previously, there will be exemptions - including travelling for work or education, for childcare purposes, and for exercise.

People should not enter or leave Tier 4 areas, and Tier 4 residents must not stay overnight away from home. Where people cannot work from home, they should still travel to work, for example in the construction and manufacturing sectors."*

AndcalloffChristmas · 19/12/2020 22:58

This is phrased in a double negative that makes it hard to understand. It says you can’t stay with anyone who isn’t in your household or in your support bubble. So if you take the double negative away, you can stay with someone in your support bubble. @

Can a tier 4 family stay with tier 2 DM?
Can a tier 4 family stay with tier 2 DM?
fluffi · 19/12/2020 22:59

A support bubble is one household, e.g. you'd all have to isolate if asked to do do, so yes overnight stays are ok

Bythehairywartsonmywitchychin · 19/12/2020 23:01

Those people that are quoting the guidance stating that support bubbles are exempt from overnight stays are incorrect. The wording in the statement is quite clear that overnight days aren’t allowed for support bubbles, however it does go on to state a list of exemptions.

People are quoting. Staying away from home overnight. You cannot leave home for holidays or stays overnight away from your main home unless permitted by law. This means that holidays in the UK and abroad are not allowed. This includes staying in a second home or caravan, or staying with anyone you do not live with or are in a support bubble with

It however goes onto say:

You are allowed to stay overnight away from your home if you (and lists the following exemptions).

-are unable to return to your main residence
-need accommodation while moving house
-need accommodation to attend a funeral or related commemorative event
-require accommodation for work purposes or to provide voluntary services
-are a child requiring accommodation for school or care
-are homeless, seeking asylum or a vulnerable person seeking refuge
-are an elite athlete or their support staff or parent, if the athlete is under 18 and it is necessary to be outside of the home for training or competition.

So, you are not automatically exempt from staying overnight with someone who is in your support bubble, unless the one of the list of exemptions applies.

www.gov.uk/guidance/tier-4-stay-at-home#stay-at-home

RavingAnnie · 19/12/2020 23:03

You are definitely allowed to stay overnight. Support bubbles are one household. Even in tier 4 or across tiers.

BrummyMum1 · 19/12/2020 23:09

The main rule to check is whether the retirement apartment manager is accepting visitors from Tier 4.

ViciousJackdaw · 19/12/2020 23:09

I'm processing the statement like this:

...holidays in the UK and abroad are not allowed

This includes staying in a second home or caravan, or staying with anyone you do not live with or are in a support bubble with

'Holidays' therefore means 'staying in a second home or caravan' or 'staying with anyone you do not live with or are in a support bubble with'.

That means a holiday could be 'staying with anyone you...are in a support bubble with'

Horizons83 · 19/12/2020 23:17

@Bythehairywartsonmywitchychin

Sorry but it is you that is incorrect. You are misreading this section:
staying with anyone you do not live with or are in a support bubble with

The 'live with or are in a support bubble with' is one entity. So you CAN stay with anyone you live with OR are in a support bubble with.

Clymene · 19/12/2020 23:17

I would think the manager of the retirement apartments won't want you there. He might not even want you visiting. I do t think I would if I were responsible for a lot of vulnerable people

Clymene · 19/12/2020 23:18

And it is not 'terrifying' that people are misunderstanding that sentence: it's appallingly badly written

Hmm
Lancrelady80 · 19/12/2020 23:19

Appallingly constructed sentence, clear as mud. It actually takes talent to mess it up quite so badly.

If only it had said: don't stay overnight with anyone you don't live with. This includes support bubbles.

OR

don't stay overnight anywhere except your own home, and stay only with those you normally live with. However, support bubbles are exempt and may also stay together overnight.

I read it as - visits are okay but not overnight stays as increases possibility of Tier 4 bringing Covid into lower tier areas as overnighters "just" pop to the local shop for extra bread/milk for their stay.

Neolara · 19/12/2020 23:19

For the life of me, I can't see how people are interpreting that statement as it's ok to stay overnight with your bubble. (It's not relevant to me so have no skin in the game, I just can't see where the ambiguity is.)

AldiAisleofCrap · 19/12/2020 23:19

@ViciousJackdaw
You cannot leave home for holidays or stays overnight away from your main home unless permitted by law. This means that holidays in the UK and abroad are not allowed. This includes staying in a second home or caravan, or staying with anyone you do not live with or are in a support bubble with

No can do, sorry.

Did you actually read what you wrote?
you do not live with or are in a support bubble with