Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think a woman wouldn't be praised for this like a man was

300 replies

GlummyMcGlummerson · 16/12/2020 16:28

Seen this story a few times today about Tom Cruise screaming at crew members on the set of Mission Impossible 7 for not social distancing and threatening to fire them www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/entertainment-arts-55330579

The comments on social media are almost unanimously positive, lots of "good for him" "well done Tom" and "he's gone up in my estimation".

Any time I see something like this I imagine how the reaction would be if it was a story about a woman. If Nicole Kidman had done this I bet my bottom dollar she'd be branded a psycho, hysterical, over emotional, needs to calm down, who does she think she is speaking like that to those poor men etc.

FWIW I think he behaved appallingly if my boss screamed at me at work I'd have something to say about it.

But AIBU to think a woman would have been treated differently for doing the same thing?

OP posts:
JustAnotherPoster00 · 17/12/2020 09:36

it doesn't mean that the world has shifted its attitude for promiscuous women

You mean the menz havent?

Why would you care what men think? or is this back to the use of the word graceful you used earlier, that youre so full of your own internalised misogyny that you think of promiscuous women as sluts yourself?

Lovelydovey · 17/12/2020 09:39

We regularly have this conversation at work - how some senior men have a real attitude and are described as focused, determined, ambitious, results driven but a woman with the same attitude would be rude, unkind and pushy. There are still real disparities in what people expect to see from a woman and a man, and what behaviours are excused as a result of sex.

OnePointOneName · 17/12/2020 09:50

I've NC to write this post, just in case someone i know connects it with my SM account.

I made a similar point on a social media platform, where TC was being defended for his rant. Pointing out that he would be called a Karen if he was a woman had done the same REALLY angered people. By people, it was 95% men. I had to put it on silent as I was getting an absolute barrage of abuse and 'Karen' replies. There was no anger in my comment, no swearing or 'going off on one'. Apparently the mere mention of suggesting people were being hypocritical is enough to trigger men into excusably being allowed to throw abuse at women. And people say that men are the ones who need defending from women? Utterly laughable.

Awwlookatmybabyspider · 17/12/2020 09:55

"She'd be called a Karen.".

This 1000 %.

GlummyMcGlummerson · 17/12/2020 10:21

@JustAnotherPoster00

it doesn't mean that the world has shifted its attitude for promiscuous women

You mean the menz havent?

Why would you care what men think? or is this back to the use of the word graceful you used earlier, that youre so full of your own internalised misogyny that you think of promiscuous women as sluts yourself?

I don't care what individual men think but seeing as we live in a patriarchy and their attitudes as a class towards women have deep impacts, wether you like it or not.
OP posts:
GlummyMcGlummerson · 17/12/2020 10:25

@OnePointOneName yea I notice if you ever deign to point out men's behaviour on SM, men will by and large come out and abuse you.
I've also noticed they never seem to comment on posts about male in female violence in disgust though. That's almost exclusively women. And when they do post it's usually along the lines of "what about the false accusations"

OP posts:
OnePointOneName · 17/12/2020 10:36

And when they do post it's usually along the lines of "what about the false accusations"

Oh yes, they're allowed to do 'whatabouttary' to their heart's content. Some even go full 'well she did x, y, z (basically annoyed him), shouldn't men be allowed to defend themselves anymore?'. The only exception is when the man in question is not white/British, in which case they get to pretend they care about women by exercising their racism card.

SpreadeagledSquire · 17/12/2020 10:41

The cheddary maniac has finally lost it.

GlummyMcGlummerson · 17/12/2020 10:49

@OnePointOneName yes!! I mentioned Tommy Robinson earlier. Good example he only cares about women and girls when black or brown people are the perpetrators. Funny that

OP posts:
NoDabbingPlease · 17/12/2020 10:56

@SherryPalmer

She’d 100% be called a “Karen”.
Was just about to type this!
JustAnotherPoster00 · 17/12/2020 11:15

[quote GlummyMcGlummerson]@OnePointOneName yes!! I mentioned Tommy Robinson earlier. Good example he only cares about women and girls when black or brown people are the perpetrators. Funny that[/quote]
That's because he's a racist so anything out of his mouth can be safely and easily ignored

Calmandmeasured1 · 17/12/2020 11:16

Oops, he did it again.

www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/13499768/tom-cruise-covid-rant-staff-quit/

Mr Angry. Just because the set has been disrupted by Covid previously, it doesn't mean that Tom Cruise has to behave
unprofessionally and shout and swear at employees.

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 17/12/2020 11:18

You will of course get the 'blindly agree with anyone shouting about covid' people who I do think would stick up for a woman in the same way as TC

I agree, none pandemic times i think some people would think differently

AryaStarkWolf · 17/12/2020 11:24

@Katgolde

It makes me think of how Priti Patel was treated for allegedly having a forthright attitude in the workplace.
Oh yes suggesting the British threaten to starve us Irish(again) in order to get our government to bend on the NI Border issue is just her being "forthright"
CakeRequired · 17/12/2020 11:45

Well the set had been closed down multiple times hadn't it because some people were too stupid to follow simple rules?

That affects all of their jobs, they all stop getting paid presumably. That won't bother cruise, he earns a ton of money anyway and doesn't need it, but the rest of the crew would struggle to get by without money coming in. So someone's selfish actions can see someone end up homeless because they can't pay rent potentially.

We don't know how often they'd been told to stand apart, judging by his reaction it was a lot. He'd had enough and told them off for it. I'd honestly think he'd done the right thing if he was a woman. They were being idiots and needed told off. If you behave like a child, might as well treat you like one. Actually, that's not fair on kids because even most kids can follow simple rules. They are adults, they are supposed to be reasonably intelligent.

GlummyMcGlummerson · 17/12/2020 12:07

@CakeRequired even so you don't ever speak to staff like thats it's workplace bullying

OP posts:
MarieIVanArkleStinks · 17/12/2020 12:55

you don't ever speak to staff like thats it's workplace bullying.

Unless you're Tom Cruise, apparently.

I read the question in the OP as a hypothetical one. A PP suggests there are enough examples of misogynistic discrimination out there that invented scenarios are unhelpful. I can see that point, and also see that the language of women - both spoken and non-verbal - is policed more rigorously than that of men. On a micro-level that would be things like manspread. Or taking up more space than women. Or giving women and girls advice that, in order to protect themselves from possible predators, they should make themselves, their freedoms, and the parameters of their lives, narrower and smaller. Women pepper our language with apologism. We're socially conditioned to do it. It's a habit we can break if we recognise it but this can be surprisingly difficult and meet with hostile reactions. Women are not meant to be assertive. Examples: apologising whenever we can. Defensive language, like 'just'. Hedging, or tag questions, or qualifiers and disclaimers. Tentative speech.

Since we're talking about Cruise, take Hollywood. Mel Gibson, anti-Semite and proven abuser who admits to striking his partner when holding their child, is caught red-handed and lies low for a while. He's now back in work. His ex is lambasted as a gold digger. There is unassailable evidence as to his behaviour. In which case 'she must have pushed his buttons'. Just look at what you made me do.

Take Johnny Depp. Sues The Sun (nobody asked him to) for libel: Court decides on balance of probabilities they were correct to call him a 'wife beater'. How could they not? He admitted to headbutting her in court. Response? 'But she did it as well!' (It wasn't a criminal trial and this isn't what the Court were being asked to decide). Only Depp's fans were surprised by the ruling and instantly launched a petition to have Heard ousted from her movie project. To this end they were gleefully egged on by Depp who seems to be amply proving her point. SHE is the censored one here.

Now take Rose McGowan. (Well, she's crackers anyway, right)? Take Ashley Judd. Take Annabella Sciorra. Take Jessica Hynes. Take any woman who eventually stood up, asserted their boundaries, said 'no' to coercion and rape, said 'no' to female exploitation in Hollywood. Who didn't assert any form of aggression toward males, but demanded males stop their aggression to them.

The response? They should have sacrificed their careers rather than end up on the casting couch. They should have said something at the time (how?) They want money. They are 'jumping on the bandwagon'. Or, more frequently, they're probably lying. (Any doubt as to what responses are normally meted out to women who openly state they have been victims of male aggression or sexual abuse, do one quick Twitter search of #MeToo). The pattern is clear here. The moral we're supposed to absorb from it is clear too. Men can get away with aggression. Are encouraged to get away with it. Women should put up, shut up, suck it up, and if they end up victims should take the blame.

OP's assumptions might not be empirically-based, but neither are they a wild card. They're entirely logical.

derxa · 17/12/2020 13:02

@GlummyMcGlummerson

Gemma Collins has made a living out of screeching and bawling and shouting and being an all round diva. She is far from shamed.

Oh please so she's never been fat shamed?! And she doesn't scream at people and threaten to fire them

Can you tell me a man who has done this

John McEnroe

And Serena Williams much as I love her
Wheresmykimchi · 17/12/2020 13:54

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

you don't ever speak to staff like thats it's workplace bullying.

Unless you're Tom Cruise, apparently.

I read the question in the OP as a hypothetical one. A PP suggests there are enough examples of misogynistic discrimination out there that invented scenarios are unhelpful. I can see that point, and also see that the language of women - both spoken and non-verbal - is policed more rigorously than that of men. On a micro-level that would be things like manspread. Or taking up more space than women. Or giving women and girls advice that, in order to protect themselves from possible predators, they should make themselves, their freedoms, and the parameters of their lives, narrower and smaller. Women pepper our language with apologism. We're socially conditioned to do it. It's a habit we can break if we recognise it but this can be surprisingly difficult and meet with hostile reactions. Women are not meant to be assertive. Examples: apologising whenever we can. Defensive language, like 'just'. Hedging, or tag questions, or qualifiers and disclaimers. Tentative speech.

Since we're talking about Cruise, take Hollywood. Mel Gibson, anti-Semite and proven abuser who admits to striking his partner when holding their child, is caught red-handed and lies low for a while. He's now back in work. His ex is lambasted as a gold digger. There is unassailable evidence as to his behaviour. In which case 'she must have pushed his buttons'. Just look at what you made me do.

Take Johnny Depp. Sues The Sun (nobody asked him to) for libel: Court decides on balance of probabilities they were correct to call him a 'wife beater'. How could they not? He admitted to headbutting her in court. Response? 'But she did it as well!' (It wasn't a criminal trial and this isn't what the Court were being asked to decide). Only Depp's fans were surprised by the ruling and instantly launched a petition to have Heard ousted from her movie project. To this end they were gleefully egged on by Depp who seems to be amply proving her point. SHE is the censored one here.

Now take Rose McGowan. (Well, she's crackers anyway, right)? Take Ashley Judd. Take Annabella Sciorra. Take Jessica Hynes. Take any woman who eventually stood up, asserted their boundaries, said 'no' to coercion and rape, said 'no' to female exploitation in Hollywood. Who didn't assert any form of aggression toward males, but demanded males stop their aggression to them.

The response? They should have sacrificed their careers rather than end up on the casting couch. They should have said something at the time (how?) They want money. They are 'jumping on the bandwagon'. Or, more frequently, they're probably lying. (Any doubt as to what responses are normally meted out to women who openly state they have been victims of male aggression or sexual abuse, do one quick Twitter search of #MeToo). The pattern is clear here. The moral we're supposed to absorb from it is clear too. Men can get away with aggression. Are encouraged to get away with it. Women should put up, shut up, suck it up, and if they end up victims should take the blame.

OP's assumptions might not be empirically-based, but neither are they a wild card. They're entirely logical.

I don't know if I want to engage after your previous post but I will.

If Depp was ousted , which for what it's worth I agree he should have been, Amber should have been too.

If amber had been ousted and Depp hadnt, we would never have heard the end of it.

Wheresmykimchi · 17/12/2020 13:56

@JustAnotherPoster00

it doesn't mean that the world has shifted its attitude for promiscuous women

You mean the menz havent?

Why would you care what men think? or is this back to the use of the word graceful you used earlier, that youre so full of your own internalised misogyny that you think of promiscuous women as sluts yourself?

Bit of a jump there.

For people who don't care what men think, we do a lot of railing about what men think. We can't have it both ways.

ChestnutStuffing · 17/12/2020 14:15

@BrumBoo

I suspect that if she were a white bloke whatever she had said would have been acceptable.

Not acceptable, but definitely not brought to light. I suspect there are many white men in parliament who behave in a similar or even worse manner, most of it won't be spoken about never mind reported.

Maybe, although I am not sure that is so much about her sex.

I think that's the main issue I have with this thread. I do actually think that women can be considered to be aggressive sometimes where a man might be considered assertive. There are a few reasons for that, some like different expectations which are basically unfair. Also though, the fact that women have higher voices works against them - which is totally unfair in one sense but not, I think, anyone's fault. The human brain just perceives higher pitched sounds as being more like a scream.

But there are a lot of other factors which I think play a bigger part in people's response. PP's problem is mostly with progressives and very committed liberal LP supporters. They are primed not to like her because she is the wrong party and has the wrong opinions, but they especially don't like that she is a non-white woman with the wrong opinions.

With Cruise in this instance it is the people who are very big on covid fears that support him and if it was a woman producer I suspect you'd see the same division.

For a lot of Hollywood types, the public's tolerance for them being dicks to staff seems to come down to whether they have a winning personality or not.

toconclude · 17/12/2020 14:40

@Katgolde

It makes me think of how Priti Patel was treated for allegedly having a forthright attitude in the workplace.
Oh FFS. If it makes you think that you have a) not been paying attention b) apparently give this govt a pass for appalling behaviour just 'cause c) do not know nor care what bullying is or its impact on the victims.

Added up, not a good look for you.

GlummyMcGlummerson · 17/12/2020 14:54

Excellent post @MarieIVanArkleStinks

OP posts:
Katgolde · 17/12/2020 15:09

Ok I get the message; Patel was not the best example and although I recall she was cleared I hadn't followed her case too closely. Of course I care about bullying and know what it is. Was basically saying that if a woman behaved like Cruise she'd likely be treated worse than he was.

Willfiasco · 18/12/2020 11:34

@WhereverIGoddamnLike

Their production has already had to close down more than once because of outbreaks so in this case, I think you're wrong. If the lead (who was also the name behind the franchise, an a producer etc) was a female, then she would be given the same response for the most part.

If course Tom Cruise is getting pissed off. They dont want to shut down yet again because staff members wont follow the rules.

She really wouldn't. That's the point.
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.