To think a woman wouldn't be praised for this like a man was

[GlummyMcGlummerson]

Seen this story a few times today about Tom Cruise screaming at crew members on the set of Mission Impossible 7 for not social distancing and threatening to fire them www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/entertainment-arts-55330579

The comments on social media are almost unanimously positive, lots of "good for him" "well done Tom" and "he's gone up in my estimation".

Any time I see something like this I imagine how the reaction would be if it was a story about a woman. If Nicole Kidman had done this I bet my bottom dollar she'd be branded a psycho, hysterical, over emotional, needs to calm down, who does she think she is speaking like that to those poor men etc.

FWIW I think he behaved appallingly if my boss screamed at me at work I'd have something to say about it.

But AIBU to think a woman would have been treated differently for doing the same thing?

@Katgolde ''It makes me think of how Priti Patel was treated for allegedly having a forthright attitude in the workplace.''

Bullying is very different from having a ''forthright attitude''....

@GlummyMcGlummerson

My point was men could never feel they could be feminists because you are so divisive between womern and men.

And there you have it. It's women's fault if men aren't on board with women's rights. Because the feminists haven't been nice enough to them

Oh come on Glummy . At this point you're being obtuse. You know my views. I know yours. We don't agree. And that's OK.

I agree with everything @MarieIVanArkleStinks says. MRAs aren't half as clever as they think they are. How come it's only ever threads where they have an opportunity to trash women who want to take a stand against male violence and aggression, that they post on.

@GlummyMcGlummerson

I agree with everything *@MarieIVanArkleStinks* says. MRAs aren't half as clever as they think they are. How come it's only ever threads where they have an opportunity to trash women who want to take a stand against male violence and aggression, that they post on.

I'm not trying to trash women. In all honesty I tend to post on the most active .

As you completely ignored earlier , I was on last night defending a woman who wanted to date while pregnant while she was piled on.

But that wouldn't suit the agenda to vilify me, would it.

@GlummyMcGlummerson

I agree with everything *@MarieIVanArkleStinks* says. MRAs aren't half as clever as they think they are. How come it's only ever threads where they have an opportunity to trash women who want to take a stand against male violence and aggression, that they post on.

If you'd have posted whether Tom cruise was aggressive and wrong , I'd have agreed with you.

I just don't agree that it's sexist.

But I'm pissing in the wind here.

But why is it up to women to get men on board with women's rights? Why is that something we have to achieve? It's something they should be on board with anyway if they were half decent human beings. Saying "ooh the feminists scared me off" is a textbook misogynist move. Like when Tommy Robinson did a live YouTube in tears because some women had been mean to him online never mind that he very nearly sabotaged CSA victims opportunity for justice - the women and their nasty words are the real bad guys here

@GlummyMcGlummerson

But why is it up to women to get men on board with women's rights? Why is that something we have to achieve? It's something they should be on board with anyway if they were half decent human beings. Saying "ooh the feminists scared me off" is a textbook misogynist move. Like when Tommy Robinson did a live YouTube in tears because some women had been mean to him online never mind that he very nearly sabotaged CSA victims opportunity for justice - the women and their nasty words are the real bad guys here

I don't disagree with that glummy.

@GlummyMcGlummerson I'm just unsure how these types of threads are supposed to work.

You post it's sexist , people all agree , nobody is allowed to disagree, and that's it?

I get that you don't know anyone on the internet but I'm really not the nasty game playing troll I'm being made out to be. I just have a different opinion. That's all.

As you completely ignored earlier , I was on last night defending a woman who wanted to date while pregnant while she was piled on

Yes fair enough - I actually quoted you on that (weird) thread as i agreed with you. But I still think you have an MRA-style agenda. It's all the same trappings and script of the many MRAs that hang about online.

An example:
I said for every 165 women raped 1 man is falsely accused
You: don't you care about the falsely accused

See how hard it is to take it seriously that you're a feminist?

And it's your wild pendulum swings of "I'm a feminist" then "I don't see why anyone would be a feminist with people like you"; claiming "no wonder men don't want to be feminists when it's so divisive" to agreeing with me that they should be on board with women's right anyway without encouragement.

@GlummyMcGlummerson

As you completely ignored earlier , I was on last night defending a woman who wanted to date while pregnant while she was piled on

Yes fair enough - I actually quoted you on that (weird) thread as i agreed with you. But I still think you have an MRA-style agenda. It's all the same trappings and script of the many MRAs that hang about online.

An example:
I said for every 165 women raped 1 man is falsely accused
You: don't you care about the falsely accused

See how hard it is to take it seriously that you're a feminist?

But I didn't say that glummy.

Of course I care about women being raped. Thingys post earlier about how I actively went for a raped woman is just below the belt. However , you posted that statistic as a well false accusations don't happen because for 1 there's 165 raped women.

Genuinely , as youl have seen earlier with me steering away from the domestic abuse , I don't honestly like to discuss things like that as it's not something I've experienced or have knowledge of. In the thread that is being referred to, I disagreed with a poster who then shared a story of being raped and our interaction was then very much me apologising that she'd been through that and stepping well back.

I digress.

I just think that part of the issue is that any issue faced by men is countered with a boohoo women have it worse.

And in many ways they do.

But what does consistently hammering that achieve?

Your comments would maybe work if I was genuinely an MRA. I'm not. I don't hate women. I don't dislike women. I don't even love men, to be honest. I've dated pretty much every dickhead going and I've suffered for it. But I still just don't believe that there's sexism in everything. I just don't. And I think there are a lot of different types if you will of feminists. Again, just my opinion.

@GlummyMcGlummerson

And it's your wild pendulum swings of "I'm a feminist" then "I don't see why anyone would be a feminist with people like you"; claiming "no wonder men don't want to be feminists when it's so divisive" to agreeing with me that they should be on board with women's right anyway without encouragement.

You have done wild pendulum swings uoriself glummy across threads we've interacted with - I think it's human nature to respond differently to different tones.

To answer this post though.

I do consider myself a feminist.

I do feel that aggressive attitudes shown not only on threads like these but in life can put people off the idea of feminism. .

I do think it could be difficult for men to want to be feminists when it's so divisive. I agree that in practice they should be , of course I do , but I'm not a man and I don't think in black and white.

@GlummyMcGlummerson

As you completely ignored earlier , I was on last night defending a woman who wanted to date while pregnant while she was piled on

Yes fair enough - I actually quoted you on that (weird) thread as i agreed with you. But I still think you have an MRA-style agenda. It's all the same trappings and script of the many MRAs that hang about online.

An example:
I said for every 165 women raped 1 man is falsely accused
You: don't you care about the falsely accused

See how hard it is to take it seriously that you're a feminist?

MM, I don't think this is particularly fair. Wanting some balance in terms of how you talk about people isn't the same as being what you are calling an MRA - though I don't really like the use of that term in some of these situations.

Threads like this one starting with a statement like "a man was universally praised for this shitty behaviour and a woman who did the same would be universally hated" are pretty unbalanced. You should really expect that people will disagree.

It's just not true, even if the reactions overall would be different. And TBH on MN you tend to have a good contingent who praise a woman for doing something they would say a man was a shit for, so it's not like there is only one kind of bias that goes on with these sorts of statements.

If you don't want people saying that you arn't representing men fairly you should try making statements that are less hyperbolic.

Threads like this one starting with a statement like "a man was universally praised for this shitty behaviour and a woman who did the same would be universally hated" are pretty unbalanced.

I disagree. In the context of the event (man loses his shit and is filmed going on a rant), I find it very relevant to the current climate of misogyny. So many women are currently being filmed, photographed, 'cancelled' for this exact sort of behaviour. Like it's society's right, to destroy as many women behaving 'like a Karen' as possible. Yet here we have an example of a famous male doing exactly the same, and there's no calls to 'cancel' him, no memes of his face, no suggesting every man who goes apeshit is a 'Tom'. Do you not feel there's hypocrisy?

@GlummyMcGlummerson

Op I personally think it's a very odd thing to try and compare to how a woman would be received , if I'm honest.

Why is it odd?

We live in a sexist society. It's important to be aware of the double standards that oppress us. It's important to be aware of male privilege

But in this case you are comparing Tom Cruise IRL reaction to an imaginary what if a woman did it. Because it is all in your imagination, you can say it would go however you please to fit your narrative. The whole “if it were” is not a valid comparison and says more about you than about the world.

@PlanDeRaccordement has been far more eloquent in my thoughts than I, but this.

So many women are currently being filmed, photographed, 'cancelled' for this exact sort of behaviour

Name one female actress/celebrity who has been filmed doing the same thing as Tom Cruise and cancelled.

Why will be only accept a carbon copy situation before deciding if there's a double standard?! Use your brains, it's really not hard, knowing the society we live in and the ride sexism, to picture how a screaming woman would be spoken about.

@GlummyMcGlummerson

Why will be only accept a carbon copy situation before deciding if there's a double standard?! Use your brains, it's really not hard, knowing the society we live in and the ride sexism, to picture how a screaming woman would be spoken about.

Sorry but a “carbon copy” is essential to the definition of a double standard. A double standard is when the same situation occurs with the only difference being that it is a woman instead of a man, the reaction, judgement and results of the situation are different.

You cannot have a double standard by comparing wildly different situations. Especially ones so wild that one happened in reality and the other only in your imagination.

Sorry but a “carbon copy” is essential to the definition of a double standard

The sentiment, yes, not the exact set of circumstances.

We know that if a woman sleeps around she's considered a slag and a man's a hero. There are no rules about numbers or times or ages or circumstances - because that is the sentiment

For example no one says "well Tiffany slept with 29 men and Michael with 30 therefore Tiffany isn't a slag and Michael isn't a hero". The double standard is: "women are slag men are heroes"

If this particular sexist double standard is definitely in existence, then it should not be impossible for you to provide proof of a real life incident exposing it. Right? So please, tell me about a female actress/celebrity who has gone on a screaming fit similar to Tom Cruises and been cancelled as a result.

I don’t deny society is sexist, but we have enough real life double standards to be angry about and fight. What is the point of imagining ones that do not exist? It is crying wolf like the nursery tale and all it does is make us likely to be ignored when we want to raise the issue of actual double standards that occur in real life.

@GlummyMcGlummerson
You’re deflecting by changing the subject to promiscuity. Just because that double standard exists, doesn’t mean there is a double standard regarding the Tom Cruise incident.

I wasn't changing the subject, it's called an analogy

To answer your question - Ellen DeGeneres. Accusations of mistreating staff, gets her universally hammered and cancelled. I believe she issued an apology and hasn't posted on social media for months. And there's no video footage to prove it. If Tom Cruise gets cancelled, or has Twitter trending about how awful he is, I'll eat my hat.

FWIW Ellen sounds like she's a dick - but that's not the point. The point is the standard of behaviour for women is shockingly lower than it is for men. Rapists and murderers as men in power and A-list celebrities. How many women do you know who've committed a serious crime like murder and still kept their film/TV/recording contract?

The Ellen DeGeneres thing is not comparable. Those allegations were because her staff had been furloughed and not received communications about their job status during the lockdown. That is the responsibility of the show producers, Warner Bros, not Ellen herself as Ellen is also an employee of Warner Bros.
www.who.com.au/ellen-degeneres-slammed-for-poor-treatment-staff