Was DD overreacting?

[christmascaroller]

Last night we (DH, DD15 and I) were watching something with Fairytale of New York in, and DH said "isn't it ridiculous that they can't say f*ggot anymore". DD told him that it was a slur (which I don't disagree with btw) and that he shouldn't say it even in this context. He said that it was perfectly fine for him to say as he wasn't being homophobic. My AIBU is this: when he said that it was fine to say, DD said "just admit that you're a bigotted twat instead of wasting your breath"!! I told DD that this was unacceptable but she stormed out and hasn't spoken to us since.

YABU: her reaction was perfectly justified
YANBU: she shouldn't be using language like that over a word

@Doingitaloneandproud it absolutely WAS a homophobic slur when the song was written! 'You scumbag, you maggot, you cheap lousy f**t...' they weren't referring to a type of sausage, or something you put on the fire 🤷‍♀️

but it’s probably fairly distressing to realise your father’s a bigot tbf. Your daughter could well be LGBTQ.

Yes I agree. If OP's DD was gay and had to hear her father describing how he could use a homophobic slur "but not in a homophobic way" I can understand the build up of anger at not being listened to. Whether she's LGBTQIA+ or not, he could decide to be more diplomatic, and she needs to learn how to respond appropriately to this type of conflict.

@emilyfrost

I'm assuming you're female, so I guess by that logic you don't mind being called a cnt or a whre? Because it's not fair to only care about the oppressed groups that you fit into specifically.

berrygirlie I don’t have a problem with the words cunt or whore; using them myself or being called them. They’re just words.

I mean if you're OK with the potential for sexist slurs, then at least you're not hypocritical. I don't necessarily understand it but here we are.

Equality looks a lot like “oppression” to those who’ve been used to privilege. Changing language is just the bare basics of making the world a more equal and tolerant place.

Shane McGowan has no issue with the word being changed/ censored. Its been stated in the past that the song is about two characters- neither of whom are wholesome members of society.

The word has been used- and is still used, in a derogatory way toward the LGBTQ+ community. The fact that cis heterosexual people are kicking up a stink that they can’t use it “even in a song” or saying that its “political correctness gone mad” says more about them than your DD- who, yes, could have handled the situation better, but is right to be annoyed with your husband.

@viques

Objecting to faggot while using the word twat !

Does she even know what twat means?

LOL this is such a good point!

Yanbu, your DD needs to learn to argue her point persuasively without calling her dad a twat. Hardly taken the moral highground there, has she?!

Teach her to be able to argue her point.

@reprehensibleme

It's also a bit telling that 'faggot' appalling but 'slut' is OK?

Yeah exactly.

Imo Shame Mcgowen gave a really honest and reasonable answer to the debate about that verse (posted below) Also, where do you draw the line when it comes to art? Can characters in Films or TV Shows or Plays use the word? And if they can why is it different in a Song?

"“The word was used by the character because it fitted with the way she would speak and with her character,” he said. “She is not supposed to be a nice person, or even a wholesome person. She is a woman of a certain generation at a certain time in history and she is down on her luck and desperate.”

He said the dialogue was “as accurate as I could make it but she is not intended to offend! She is just supposed to be an authentic character and not all characters in songs and stories are angels or even decent and respectable, sometimes characters in songs and stories have to be evil or nasty in order to tell the story effectively.”

The singer added that he did not want to get into an argument about the song and said he would have no problem with that word being bleeped out during radio airplay."

I mean if you're OK with the potential for sexist slurs, then at least you're not hypocritical. I don't necessarily understand it but here we are.

berrygirlie They’re just words. People are far too oversensitive these days and have no resilience.

If you don’t like it, don’t use it, but don’t try to censor everyone else to fit your own sensitivities.

I do think context is important here. I don’t think the song writers were suggesting faggot was a preferable term to use- it’s being deployed in a bitter argument between lovers. Same with “old slut on junk”.

*They’re just words. People are far too oversensitive these days and have no resilience.

If you don’t like it, don’t use it, but don’t try to censor everyone else to fit your own sensitivities.*

Emily would you call someone the n word? Do you think it's appropriate to do so? There are some parts of "woke culture" (yuck) that go too far into the extremes but avoiding slurs is not one of them.

she shouldn't be using language like that over a word

They're both in the wrong, DH for claiming its not homophobic. DD for using offensive/misogynistic language.

I feel sorry for you being stuck in the middle of it all OP

Being upset over the use of the word, fine. Words and the impact and understanding change over time. Shane McGowan would not write this today, and sadly we cannot ask Kirsty MacColl (RIP).

Not speaking at all today seems an over-reaction.

I've had similar discussions around Oliver's Army. Elvis Costello wrote it as an anti war song, inspired in part by a trip to Northern Ireland, which was at the time was embroiled in the troubles. The British Army on the streets at the time would refer to Catholics as "white Ni**ers" ie they were the lowest of the low, and that's why the line was included in the song. It's in context.

Now the word is bleeped out on the radio.

It's not a word in my vocabulary. I think it's highly offensive and as a (very lapsed) Catholic, white ni**er is personally offensive. But Costello was using the word to explain the atrocities and how little the Army viewed Catholics. I'm in 2 minds about it being bleeped out.

It’s a shame she reacted like that, she is correct but just needs to learn how to put her point of view across in a mature way.

It must be utterly draining being a teenager nowadays, with so many issues to get outraged over.
[rolls eyes]

This is really complicated. My husband and I had a discussion about the words of the song, and also about songs we were taught as children, and couldn't decide why we thought it was ok to sing the original words to Fairy tale of New York, when we wouldn't sing songs we sang when we were children, which included a sea shanty (Johnny Come Down to Hilo) which includes the words "A big buck nr with his sea boots on". We were both taught that in Junior school as part of our music lessons in the 1950s-60s. The fact is that it's easy to make excuses for something we love, such as FT of NY, and want to still hear the original. As for the use of "Ft in the song, I have mixed feelings. I hate it as a homophobic slur, but in the context of a woman using it to her boyfriend in a drunken tirade, at a time that has passed, I want it to be OK, if you see what I mean.

I'm biased, it's my favourite Christmas song and the copies are all shite. I would be disgusted if someone called someone else a faggot in this day and age but it's a nostalgic Christmas song and the whole point is they're pissed and arguing. Although I always thought of the food, the gay slur never occurred to me.

She's 15 and developing strong opinions but she needs to learn how to behave when you disagree with someone. You cant kick off because people just stop wanting to talk to you at all.

“but it’s probably fairly distressing to realise your father’s a bigot tbf. Your daughter could well be LGBTQ”

I don’t think OPs DH is necessarily a bigot. I’m bisexual, lots of my friends are gay, and none of us have a problem with the term being used in the context of a fictional argument between two deeply imperfect and desperate individuals.

It's not perfectly fine for him to say at all...

It's ok if it's in the song on a show or something as that's the son but unless he's gay he really shouldn't be saying it

I don’t think OPs DH is necessarily a bigot. I’m bisexual, lots of my friends are gay, and none of us have a problem with the term being used in the context of a fictional argument between two deeply imperfect and desperate individuals.

I'm bisexual. I think the song itself is fine and acknowledge it was a product of it's time, but I think the word should be censored. I also do not think it's acceptable to insinuate you miss being able to say the word, or saying "Oh I'm not saying it in a homophobic way!" I think that part is bigoted, because in that context it clearly is homophobic or you wouldn't miss saying it.

@Lougle

"Even The Pouges themselves say the lyrics should be censored."

No they didn't. Shane MacGowan actually said:

"The word was used by the character because it fitted with the way she would speak and with her character,” he said.

"She is not supposed to be a nice person or even a wholesome person. She is a woman of a certain generation at a certain time in history and she is down on her luck and desperate".

MacGowan added: "Her dialogue is as accurate as I could make it but she is not intended to offend! She is just supposed to be an authentic character.

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"Not all characters in songs and stories are angels or even decent and respectable, sometimes characters in songs and stories have to be evil or nasty in order to tell the story effectively."

MacGowan went on to say that he does not want to clash with anyone over the song and would understand if it had to be censored on the air.

"If people don't understand that I was trying to accurately portray the character as authentically as possible then I am absolutely fine with them bleeping the word, but I don't want to get into an argument," he concluded."

So he is saying that he didn't use the word to offend, that the woman who was singing would use the word whether it was offensive or not, but if people want to censor it, he isn't fussed.

Exactly this - the song isn't holding the characters up as role models. They're dysfunctional, nasty people. I hate the song because it's depressing, but I don't see the point of censoring it. We can't rewrite history (or even the present) and pretend that no one ever uses slurs like this one.

Favourite song

But she's still right. I would have done exactly the same at 15 when father would have casually used paki/nig etc

Although I guess the difference is he didn't beat the shit out of her?

It's a generational thing - she's right, we're wrong.

(I still say the words in my head as I'm not a perfect human being)

I'm also bisexual and loathe the woke world we live in. I abhor censorship and further can't stand rudeness so if my teenager went off on a rant like that I'd be livid at the disrespect.

I don't care if 'faggot' is homophobic or not. I don't care if people support or are against gay marriage (and I say that as someone who was in a long-term lesbian relationship). People are entitled to have different opinions, people are entitled to dislike homosexuality and ranting at them is not going to engender sympathy for your cause.

The problem is with a lot of teens these days is that I think they actually enjoy preaching about political correctness. It's all over their social media, DP and I can't have a discussion about transgender issues (our nephew is trans and we were having a conversation about how best to support him (was her) when we didn't truly understand what he was going through) without DSS biting our heads off and saying YOU CAN'T SAY THIS or YOU CAN'T SAY THAT. IMO we were having a normal conversation in our own home that was ultimately supportive of trans nephew, but DSS has to make sure we use exactly the right words or phrases or we get yelled at. That's not on.

Yes, equality and rights are very very important.

No, that doesn't give teenagers the right to act high and mighty like they're the most moral people in the world - the same group, bear in mind, who participate on 'rate me' Insta pages and slag their peers off for things like weight, hair etc. How is that ANY better?

Your DD needs to learn to have a discussion, and to have some respect for her rather.

Also, while she's enjoying telling people what they can and can't say, get her to look up the origins of the word 'twat' and explain to her why she's being a little stroppy hypocrite.