Was DD overreacting?

[christmascaroller]

Last night we (DH, DD15 and I) were watching something with Fairytale of New York in, and DH said "isn't it ridiculous that they can't say f*ggot anymore". DD told him that it was a slur (which I don't disagree with btw) and that he shouldn't say it even in this context. He said that it was perfectly fine for him to say as he wasn't being homophobic. My AIBU is this: when he said that it was fine to say, DD said "just admit that you're a bigotted twat instead of wasting your breath"!! I told DD that this was unacceptable but she stormed out and hasn't spoken to us since.

YABU: her reaction was perfectly justified
YANBU: she shouldn't be using language like that over a word

Bloody hell if I had spoken to my parents like that at 15 (maybe even now) j wouldn't have seen the next day!

Perhaps not an over reaction if that's how she feels but she will need to learn how to disagree with people without swearing at them or no one will take her seriously. Calling someone a twat isn't going to make them try to see or understand your view, just make them more determined to stick to their own views, but then I don't really think some people are too bothered about changing things, just want a fight.

@FlyingByTheSeatof

DD is correct

It's how they're taught these days and so many things are racist or homophobic that seem normal.
Just using the word faggot is homophobic in itself which is why DD was so upset that DH couldn't understand that concept no matter how much he may excuse it.

She will know people at school who are gay, Pan etc and having her dad make these kind of remarks will really upset her as it's disrespectful to people she knows and to her generation in general.

Are they also being taught about misogyny as well and how 'slut' is also not appropriate and disrespectful?

I'm curious, did she have a problem with any of the other of the other lyrics in that song, or just that one?

Teenagers seem to fling the word 'gay' around with abandon - something I as an ancient person would never do. This is quite interesting:
www.theguardian.com/education/2015/dec/21/the-gay-word-what-does-it-mean-when-young-people-use-it-negatively

Wait till she hears Olivers Army.

Brumboo, I don't know if The Pogues have agreed the lyrics should be censore.

www.irishtimes.com/culture/music/fairytale-ending-shane-macgowan-explains-faggot-reference-in-christmas-song-1.3723622

Yanbu, your DD needs to learn to argue her point persuasively without calling her dad a twat. Hardly taken the moral highground there, has she?!

If I had called either of my parents a twat... I cannot imagine the consequences. I just would never have been that disrespectful, even if you are in a rebellious teen phase there is no excuse for that kind of language hurled at your own family.

Your DD sounds really horrible, to be honest. I'd be extremely disappointed in her, if she was my DD.

Twat is a slang term for female genitalia so it’s not ok to say faggot but it’s ok to use twat as a derogatory term during a debate?

"Even The Pouges themselves say the lyrics should be censored."

No they didn't. Shane MacGowan actually said:

"The word was used by the character because it fitted with the way she would speak and with her character,” he said.

"She is not supposed to be a nice person or even a wholesome person. She is a woman of a certain generation at a certain time in history and she is down on her luck and desperate".

MacGowan added: "Her dialogue is as accurate as I could make it but she is not intended to offend! She is just supposed to be an authentic character.

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"Not all characters in songs and stories are angels or even decent and respectable, sometimes characters in songs and stories have to be evil or nasty in order to tell the story effectively."

MacGowan went on to say that he does not want to clash with anyone over the song and would understand if it had to be censored on the air.

"If people don't understand that I was trying to accurately portray the character as authentically as possible then I am absolutely fine with them bleeping the word, but I don't want to get into an argument," he concluded."

So he is saying that he didn't use the word to offend, that the woman who was singing would use the word whether it was offensive or not, but if people want to censor it, he isn't fussed.

@pizzaandcats same! Thought it was "old southern junk"

Also thought it was "cheap as a faggot" although on listening properly that one is clearly "cheap lousy faggot."

Well how she spoke to her dad was unacceptable regardless of his rights or wrongs so she'd have got a bollocking from me for that.

I think there's a valid discussion to be had around this, and similar. The meaning and acceptability of words change, and context is important. Does that mean it's ok to use it in a context where it was acceptable at the time, or is it unacceptable because people now find it offensive? Your daughter would do well to learn that she'll change no ones attitudes by swearing at them and calling them names, but by having rational discussions about why she/broader society now consider things unacceptable.

@KnitsAndGiggles

Would it be OK with her if her dad called her a twat when he disagreed with her?

Course not. She needs to keep a civil tongue in her head even if she disagrees with her family's point of view

This. Absolutely not okay to call your own dad a 'twat' because you don't agree.

To be fair to her, would you accept the N word being used in a song even if the song was an old song?

Times change and it just shows generational shift. Try and be understanding but also explain that what she is saying is also a slur.

Also does dh have a habit of saying these things? It might have been a build up of annoyance at some of his attitudes.

15 year old, at an age where working out your own morals and how they match with the world is a key concern, ges frustrated and over reacts as she discovers the oldies don't necessarily agree with her.

We've all been there in one form or another. Tale as old as time, that one

To be fair to her, would you accept the N word being used in a song even if the song was an old song?

Yes, you wouldn't find it appropriate to say "Isn't it ridiculous we can't say n*** anymore, but I'm not saying it in a racist way"...

My father used to do stuff like this all the time, whether it was gay slurs or racial slurs and I always hated it. And I hated the fact that he didn't even care enough about me (political correctness aside) to stop saying slurs

And yes, the irony of using the word twat as a slur 🤨

Back in the day, in Ireland, Scotland, etc faggot didn't mean gay. And it doesn't mean gay in the context of the song.

Anyone that thinks otherwise is an idiot.

Words have different meanings.

She was right to question the lyrics but it’s important not to get into abusive name calling however much you disagree.

I don't swear at all in my every day language. I love Fairytale of New York, though, and I don't find it offensive in the slightest. Having said that, I'm not gay. Perhaps I'd feel differently if I was. There is no harm in censoring it, but if they censor faggot, they should also censor slut. While they're there, 'bum' is a slur against homeless people so perhaps that should be censored, too...

Exactly silly but I do feel that her response is very much of the 'you have offended me, and I'm going to very offensively and aggressively tell you this, and you cannot argue or disagree otherwise you are a hate filled twat'

Yes it was out of order she totally overreacted but she is 15 knows everything but can't control her emotions. We all know kirsty mccoll was arguing with Shane when she called him that it is an insult blah blah maybe your dd doesn't understand but now she will be too stubborn to listen.

@ElizaLaLa

Back in the day, in Ireland, Scotland, etc faggot didn't mean gay. And it doesn't mean gay in the context of the song.

Anyone that thinks otherwise is an idiot.

Words have different meanings.

They do, but so did queer. Although that's now also a 'identity', so it may come around again in a couple of years as part of the LGBT community. Maybe some celeb with a flagging career can 'identify' as F, then we all have to pretend it's ok again, like Q. In the meantime though, people do still mainly associate it with a homophobic slur, and it's quite right we respect that.

Is she offended by pork faggots too? Also agree that it must be utterly exhausting to be a teenager nowadays, they’re permanently offended.

Back in the day, in Ireland, Scotland, etc faggot didn't mean gay. And it doesn't mean gay in the context of the song.

It really did mean Gay as an insult even back in the day

On a more serious note, this sounds like a great time to role model a different reaction to disgareements than the model she is using.

I am not sure a bollocking does anything but reinforce that anger/shouting is a valid way to react when someone does something you don't like (not saying you did that). Instead, this might be a good time to reach out to her and encourage her to talk about it without using anger or insults or shouting to get her point across.