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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Was DD overreacting?

370 replies

christmascaroller · 16/12/2020 10:40

Last night we (DH, DD15 and I) were watching something with Fairytale of New York in, and DH said "isn't it ridiculous that they can't say f*ggot anymore". DD told him that it was a slur (which I don't disagree with btw) and that he shouldn't say it even in this context. He said that it was perfectly fine for him to say as he wasn't being homophobic. My AIBU is this: when he said that it was fine to say, DD said "just admit that you're a bigotted twat instead of wasting your breath"!! I told DD that this was unacceptable but she stormed out and hasn't spoken to us since.

YABU: her reaction was perfectly justified
YANBU: she shouldn't be using language like that over a word

OP posts:
Imworthit · 16/12/2020 17:46

@chickenchowmeins

OK fair point I misread. why would he even want them to, though? i just don't see the desire to say slurs when they're completely avoidable
Freedom of speech, preservation of history, taking a joke
Butchyrestingface · 16/12/2020 17:47

when he said that it was fine to say, DD said "just admit that you're a bigotted twat instead of wasting your breath"!! I told DD that this was unacceptable but she stormed out and hasn't spoken to us since.

Cripes, I would have needed a visit to A&E had I spoken to dear old daddio like that.

I hope she sticks to her principles and doesn't accept any Christmas presents that have been paid for by the sweat and toil of such an unreconstructed barbarian, OP. Xmas Grin

mintkoala · 16/12/2020 17:48

terriblelizard
There's a bit of a sliding scale I suppose. Like if you were working on a script based on a Victorian novel, I think you might remove the ejaculating on grounds of distraction. But if you were working on a new edition of a Victorian novel, it would be quite wrong to remove the ejaculating. And it would be wrong to expect people to be horrified, and not understand that Victorian English is different to theirs.

And if you're not talking about Victorians, who are all dead, but about culturally different groups who are contemporary, I don't think you should automatically choose the preferences of the larger group. Maybe tell someone talking to Americans to use cigarette, but I wouldn't be happy if we could only remember American meanings for words.

chickenchowmeins · 16/12/2020 17:56

Freedom of speech, preservation of history, taking a joke

I love a joke. Not where oppressed people are the butt of it though

Imworthit · 16/12/2020 17:57

@mintkoala

And TerribleLizard - you can't, surely, edit every word that has ever been offensive? Anywhere? I mean - I find cunt offensive, but I wouldn't want it removed from every Medieval document! And who decides which words you are to edit? You suggest that if it's offensive to Americans, that would trump a word's meaning in any other culture?
I find the word Trump offensive... Please edit 🤣😂🤣

Only joking to prove your point 😊

Imworthit · 16/12/2020 17:58

@chickenchowmeins

Freedom of speech, preservation of history, taking a joke

I love a joke. Not where oppressed people are the butt of it though

Find me a joke where they arnt please
ItsLoisSangersFault · 16/12/2020 18:07

Okay Hmm i gave up on page 3. When did this place become the daily mail online? Been here 13 years but I'm done with place.

I cannot wait til OPs dd and my dc are adults. Cannot fucking wait til they get to roll their eyes at the generation who currently post on MN - people who use words like woke and snowflake as a defense when people challenge their homophobia or racism.

And yes - slut is a derogatory word. A horrible word. But for God's sake, can we not accept that racism and sexism can exist at the same time? That homophobia and female oppression can exist at the same time? The whatabboutery that people here use to try to shut down serious discussions is just shocking.

Homophobia is rife among secondary school kids. Homophobic hate speech is tolerated way too much, written off as inevitable, not challenged. If posters really think the OPs dd is a misguided fool, woke gone mad, they should spend a day at a secondary school and clock just how brave you would have to be to challenge homophobic hate speech.

Well done to OPs dd.

Maybe have a word with you DH, OP? Personally I'd LTB, but then compassion and intelligence and fairly high on my Must-Have list.

Yep, she should not have used the word twat but at least shes not an adult defending the use of hate speech.🤷‍♀️

MustardMitt · 16/12/2020 18:18

@Fluffybutter

She’s not wrong that it is not right to use that word these days but she shouldn’t have sworn or used name calling , that shows she’s immature.
I mean, she literally is immature! It’s fine to be immature when you’re 15!

I suspect she doesn’t yet have the debate skills to be able to articulate that a song in its historical context might be seen as acceptable, but for her father to say it’s a shame he can’t use a homophobic slur with gay abandon definitely isn’t.

I don’t think she was wrong to be upset tbh. I don’t think she should be berated for her choice of words when she was trying to tell her father what he wants to say is offensive to many.

Imworthit · 16/12/2020 18:25

@itsLoisSangersFault and the prize for mumsnet insanity goes to Lois 🏆for 'leave the bastard cause he like the pogues'.

Homophobia is a serious issue but do you really think its going to be taken more seriously by cancelling everything that you don't like? Every moment of history good or bad. If history is edited so severely, how can people learn, discuss and understand? Satires is an important form of communication to explain absurdity, difficult concepts and changing views. No culture has progressed by an avoidance of their history.

FlyingByTheSeatof · 16/12/2020 18:37

Also you'd have to live in a pretty weird household if the teenagers in it are not allowed to get upset about something and swear with frustration Hmm

Imworthit · 16/12/2020 18:38

That homophobia and female oppression can exist at the same time?

Of course but one is getting preferential treatment throughout this thread and that's what's being discussed.

TerribleLizard · 16/12/2020 18:48

@mintkoala The Victorians of course did expunge the naughty bits from Shakespeare, so maybe it would serve them right! But seriously, I don’t think the idea of taking words out of historical works is widespread at all. I think people use it as a devils advocate idea, and sometimes to discredit the arguments that a particular change ought to be made.

Every part of a play, film, song, advert etc is up for discussion by the creative team. So maybe you do want to keep ‘having a fag’ in a bit of dramatic realism, maybe you want to lean into it and show an American audience a particular world. But maybe in a 2 min advert you would make another choice if you think it’s easier to get into like that. If Hamlet is wearing a scene-stealing hat it’s either an active choice because it’s the look they’re going for, or a really badly thought through costume - and you can only do so much to control how people see it.

In Romeo and Juliet, the lines say she’s 14. You can either keep this in and play her literally as 14, keep this in but not play her as literally 14, more of an idea of youth, or cut the line. All those choices are valid, depending on the concept behind the production.

With Fairytale of New York the Pogues had the choice to keep the word, and say it’s essential to the song, or change it. And they chose to change it. The Fawlty Towers cut scene that caused such a furore a few months ago was cut years ago so that it didn’t restrict the audience. They could have said that the scene was so important it had to stay, and they would take a higher age guidance/accept that streaming services wouldn’t market it to families. Offensive humour absolutely has a market, but in this case they wanted to appeal to a broader audience so they cut an unimportant scene.

Imworthit · 16/12/2020 18:57

@terribleLizard Oh please tell me they 'kept don't mention the war' I made so many friends in Germany just being 'that dick'

mintkoala · 16/12/2020 18:59

terrible lizard
Well I was being a bit of a devils advocate, that's true. It's been an interesting discussion but I don't think I've shifted my position. And now I must go and cook a meal!

TerribleLizard · 16/12/2020 19:04

@Imworthit yes, that stayed in. It was a very unimportant scene with the Major that went, because the racial slurs in it would now carry a higher age guidance warning. You can see it on YouTube still, but you’re not missing anything without it.

TerribleLizard · 16/12/2020 19:07

@mintkoala I’m not sure we have opposing positions at all. Enjoy your dinner!

Nanny0gg · 16/12/2020 19:08

@FlyingByTheSeatof

DD is correct

It's how they're taught these days and so many things are racist or homophobic that seem normal.
Just using the word faggot is homophobic in itself which is why DD was so upset that DH couldn't understand that concept no matter how much he may excuse it.

She will know people at school who are gay, Pan etc and having her dad make these kind of remarks will really upset her as it's disrespectful to people she knows and to her generation in general.

That's ridiculous!

You need to be able to say the word to discuss why it's wrong now and why it wasn't before!

Otherwise, how do they learn?

FlyingByTheSeatof · 16/12/2020 23:24

He said that it was perfectly fine for him to say as he wasn't being homophobic

Point is it is homophobic and has been for a while so for him to make that statement is just embarrassing

SleepingStandingUp · 16/12/2020 23:48

@FlyingByTheSeatof

He said that it was perfectly fine for him to say as he wasn't being homophobic

Point is it is homophobic and has been for a while so for him to make that statement is just embarrassing

Also the fact is he was complaining he can't use the word any modem. Why would any want to use the word any more? Unless you want them for your dinner why would the word falling out of use have a negative impact on your life!
Imworthit · 17/12/2020 00:05

It's not embarrassing, maybe for you. But he meant what said. And it's biased censorship. The double standards are rediculous and it meant what it meant. Times have changed but it was a very important song. For domestic abuse victims, people struggle with addiction and anyone who suffered a major loss at Christmas. I love happy Christmas songs but there was a year when this was the only song that made me feel heard, strong and was relatable. Thank fuck for me only one or two years but Christmas can be fucked up and horrible. And the song wasn't diased it shat on everyone.

Imworthit · 17/12/2020 00:14

Christmas songs that are no longer pc:
Baby it's cold outside (sexual coercion)
I saw mummy kissing santa-claus (implied adultary)
All I want for Christmas is you (desparate & stalky)

There's many many more (will remember and post) but fuck it they mentioned a guy! and a curse word, oh my!

Imworthit · 17/12/2020 00:23

Santa baby

Imworthit · 17/12/2020 00:41

Just listened don't know where it's censored but it isn't here. Thank fuck!

SoupDragon · 17/12/2020 09:13

I saw mummy kissing santa-claus (implied adultary)

Isn't the whole point that Santa is his father in a costume?

SoupDragon · 17/12/2020 09:14

All I want for Christmas is you (desparate & stalky)

😂😂

I actually disagree with all of your "examples".

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