Withholding pudding if child hasn't eaten 'enough'

[Toriathebadger]

I'm a bit torn about this. DS3 (4) is becoming fussy, I think it's just a phase as he's always been a good eater and has plenty of fruit and veg. Just lately he's hardly been eating his meal and says he's gone off a lot of the food he would usually eat. His dad (ex dp) expects me to withhold pudding if ds hasn't eaten 'enough'. He does it with his dd (from previous) who is a fussy eater. He makes her stay at the table until she's eaten 'enough', and if she doesn't then she can't have pudding. It means she's often sat at the table alone shovelling food in reluctantly that she clearly doesn't want. It makes me feel uncomfortable.

I think there's a happy medium here, as I encourage ds to eat a bit more but ultimately if he's finished then I let him have pudding and don't make an issue out of it. Ex is horrified and thinks I'm ridiculous.

Who is being unreasonable? Either of us? Just different parenting styles?

No pudding if not eaten a at least half the meal. All these people saying making them eat more than they want are missing the OP's point that the child then wants the pudding.

I'd let them get down from the table when they have had what they want, but if they are doing that they are saying they are full, and therefore dont need pudding.

I generally don't withhold food or consider it to be a treat to have something sweet (whether that's a banana or a brownie) But I'm very much of the "don't make dinnertime a battlefield" school of thought, I was made to sit at the table till I'd had "enough" and it ended up in disordered thinking around food.

Some days I don't feel like what I've cooked, or wouldn't feel like eating what DH had cooked, I extend that thought process to DS. He's 4 and generally an ok eater and will try new things willingly, he'll also refuse cake/sweeties if he's full or doesn't fancy it.

Also find that giving a bit more time with dinner helps e.g. You can have your fruit but you have to wait until we've all finished our dinner and just leave her's in front of her.

I think it a mistake to make food an issue.

Do people really have 'pudding'?

For us that's very much a Christmas, birthday, or meal out treat.

Personally I disagree strongly with your ex, and I wouldn’t distinguish depending on what the pudding is. (Of course he shouldn’t be having too many cakes etc anyway - that’s a separate point. I’m assuming that his diet is reasonably healthy.)

I think that a lot of our hang ups around food arise from this kind of labelling of ‘good’ and ‘bad’ food. It’s just food. I try to avoid using words like ‘treat’ too, or linking food to emotions (using it as a reward / punishment etc). I don’t encourage my kids to finish their plate (beyond a simple “aren’t you hungry today?”).

Btw I have three DC age 11 to 15. They are all very good eaters, who enjoy their veg and eat almost anything. They are all strong and active and very slim. And so far (touch wood) they all seem to have a heathy relationship with food - not overeating or dieting etc. (I don’t think this is a given for teenagers!). Sorry, I don’t mean to sound smug. Just trying to give you a picture of the long term position you are aiming for.

We don't have 'pudding' or dessert unless on special occasions. Fruit or yogurt is always available though.

As she's having dessert at school every day (something I don't agree with, as it sets the expectation that a meal isn't finished until something sweet it eaten!) I don't think she needs another after dinner.

@lockeddownandcrazy

No pudding if not eaten a at least half the meal. All these people saying making them eat more than they want are missing the OP's point that the child then wants the pudding.

I'd let them get down from the table when they have had what they want, but if they are doing that they are saying they are full, and therefore dont need pudding.

But food isn’t just calories either.

So someone might have eaten enough protein but still want the vitamin C from some fruit for example.

There needs to be some common sense about not letting them stuff themselves with sugar snd nothing but, but it’s fine to have eaten enough potatoes but still want some yoghurt, or not finish some cheese but still fancy an orange.

We never have pudding. It's not needed. We do have icecream and cake on a weekly basis but not straight after a meal.

You shouldn't want or need pudding after a meal. Mine typically have it about 3 times a week as a sort of mid-afternoon snack. Or sometimes in the evening, they'll have chocolate watching a film.

My BIL does this with DN. even if there is no pudding he makes DN clear his plate. It makes for really uncomfortable meals where a lot of time is spent with him cajoling DN to eat more of a big plate of food when he's clearly full.

I would just take pudding out of the equation and let her eat as much as she wants of the main course and leave it at that. Kids have to learn to know when they are full, and like us it can vary from day to day.

Surely it's best not to make a big deal if it either way. So sitting at the table forcing then to eat is appalling and imho going to lead to food issues. However just letting a child have pudding instead of dinner is also not good. Training them to only like sweet things, teeth etc.

We just do natural consequences. If he doesn't make a decent effort with main I.e. a few mouthfulls at least, he obviously isn't that hungry and doesn't need pudding. We don't tell him this though just ask if he wants pudding once he has stopped eating enough main. If he would rather go play with his cars then eat dinner that's fine too he doesn't however get snacks/pudding afterwards in that case.

We do give him a little something before bed though regardless so he isn't going to bed hungry. Something like fruit or yoghurt.

I do think it does depend on the child too. My son is not really motivated by food and also a low weight centile as he doesn't eat much. We give him more leeway then my daughter who has a high weight percentile and is constantly on the hunt for food.

I see no need to give something sugary to a child who is full.

I think it definitely changes the landscape once we know what pudding is.

Is it apple slices, 4/5 raspberries, Greek yoghurt.
Or is it something with custard, chocolate, biscuit, Childs fruit flavoured yoghurt?

Go in between, if they don't finish their meal they don't get pudding, but don't force them to sit at the table and eat if they don't want it. This just creates negative views of food. If a child is hungry, they will eat! I was a scout leader for a few years and we constantly got told by parents before a camp, oh they don't like this or that, guess what, they ate it when they were hungry!

I do the no-dinner-no-dessert rule, and there is also a time limit to avoid lingering and poking food around the plate until it becomes genuinely too repellent to eat.

If I don't do this, DS will eat two forkfuls, start fidgeting, start campaigning for fruit and yogurt, make the dinner table a very restless place for people who are actually eating, eventually eat his fruit and yoghurt, then 20 minutes later come asking for toast.

As much as it goes against the Mumsnet wisdom, the old-fashioned way gets him eating a good variety of actual meals at sensible times, and prevents him avoiding vegetables and protein in favour of toast, fruit and yoghurt (which he would be entirely happy to live on).

He is going to create issues by deciding what is 'enough'. I never force DS to eat more than he wants, even if he is going through a fussy stage, it's just brewing issues and messing with their appetites and natural cues. That said, if he doesn't eat anything on a meal (which is rare), he can have some fruit and plain yoghurt after, never anything artificially sweet as he would probably never eat a meal if he knows to expect that! I do also ride out his fussiness, and if he won't touch certain things I'll just pop a small portion on the plate so he can have some if he likes, but not make a big thing of it. Unless you have concerns with his weight etc I would just adapt the best you can and try not to make it a 'thing'.

@FrancesHaHa
Yes this is awful. I was always a good eater as a child (slightly overweight) and have a clear memory of sitting at my aunt's table until we had finished our meal. It was really uncomfortable and she had served skate fish to 3 preteen children full of bones. I remember having to pick through it all , it's a viceral memory. My cousin (her daughter) has always had weight issues so I do wonder.

@TheYearOfSmallThings yes that is a good point, if little one is a huge fan of fruit and yoghurt then it's not a good idea to offer it. DS isn't that fussed by it but he will eat it if needed, so it's an okay choice for us.

No I wouldn’t withhold it based on what they’ve eaten. PPs have made very good points about the risks of having a battle around food and using controlling language, the language of ‘good’ and ‘bad food’, and any notion that a child needs to eat ‘more’ of something at the behest of an adult, rather than because they want to.

I especially don’t like idea of someone talking to another person about their hunger levels: ‘if you’re not hungry to do that, then—-‘ etc. Hunger and appetite are about as subjective as things get. It tells them they’re incapable of assessing their own hunger levels and to eat based on other people’s judgements. You may think you know best, but sometimes you’re just not feeling a particular item of food - just because. As an adult you have the agency to swap that with whatever you want, to cook or order something else. Children are more limited to what we choose to present to them.

The safest solution is to minimise puddings that are of low nutritional value. If they haven’t eaten much of their meal and stop want fruit/yoghurt, fine. If on the rare occasion they haven’t eaten much and want a sweeter dessert, fine. Not much harm done that way and a relaxed attitude to food is much better in the long term.

Poor girl having to shovel in food alone that she doesn't want to eat. That's not the start of a healthy relationship with food.

As an adult I don't always eat everything on my plate. I sometimes still eat a yoghurt or piece of fruit afterwards. I wouldn't offer ice-cream or cake or whatever (we rarely eat those kind of puddings anyway)) but I'd let my dc have yoghurt or fruit however much they ate of their dinner. Its best imo not to make a big deal of eating at all - how much/how little- as that's how it can start to become a bigger issue or battle of wills.

DD (5) has also become fussy in the past year. We don’t force her to clear her plate, but ask her to eat a bit of everything on there. If she says she’s full but more than half her dinner is left, we’ll ask her to eat some more - usually an extra forkful of pasta/ bolognase etc. Sometimes she will eat a bit more after being prompted to do this.

We don’t normally have pudding, but she always has a yoghurt after dinner, whether she’s eaten all or just some of it.

As a foster parent who once took on a 39lb 15 month old.. we were explicitly told by our HV that food should never be used as a punishment/reward for our now adopted DS. Withholding dessert will only instil a sense of restriction in your child which could lead to a complicated relationship with food further down the line (binging).

In our case we knew DS wasn't full, he just hadn't eaten anything other than chocolate biscuits and McDonald's chips before moving in with us. We introduced him to wheetabix (plain at first and then added different mashed fruit in). Whenever DS refused to eat a meal but was obviously cranky and hungry, we offered a bowl of wheetabix.

Continue to offer a variety of food to your DC and encourage them to pick the food up, smell it and even squish it. The more familiar DC is with the texture and smell of foods the more likely they are to pop a bit in their mouth without feeling any pressure to do so!

Good luck!

Compromise. I would allow a child to stop eating if they’ve had enough, but if they’ve eaten very little of the healthy meal they’ve been given, I agree they don’t then get pudding.

I also agree with you that encouraging children to eat food they don’t want isn’t great either, they need to be able to recognise and control it when they are full up, but they shouldn’t be having pudding with every meal anyway.

Depends what pudding is. We've never had it after every meal.

In our house, pudding is purely extra food for if you are still hungry after finishing your meal. Not a replacement for your meal.

If we didn't do this, dd would just never eat vegetables and have cake instead. I dont force them to finish dinner, if they have eaten no vegetables but maintain they are full, this is fine. But pudding is additional to dinner, not instead of.

(If they don't eat it and later claim to be hungry again, then there's nothing sweet on offer, they get toast, or hummus and veg sticks/pitta, or a sandwich depending on the time)