To think that there must be very few people who voted to leave the EU and thought we’d be in this position now

[Butterflyfluff]

No deal deadline is tomorrow and Johnson is now spinning that as the best jolly jape ever

That’s a far cry from his referendum and subsequent promises of getting the best deal ever

Are there many leavers who actually wanted and thought we’d end up with no deal?

Russia is surely the one country rejoicing most at all this crap

Yes. They are the only true winners here, and I believe they were pulling the strings more than people realise in both the Brexit vote and Trumps election: both events surgically divided its opponents like we’ve never seen before.

Well I’m expecting trouble. Lots and lots of trouble. If people cannot eat (and no, stuff grown in your garden is not an option for most) and the shops are empty, the mood will turn extremely sour very quickly. I just hope I’m proved wrong but it’s looking more and more likely.

I suspect that this is all a game. Boris is ensuring this goes to the wire and fraying nerves so that any old crappy deal will be seen as marvellous verses the disaster of no deal. It’s disgusting. No leave voter can claim they were lied to. They were warned BJ was a liar and that the leave campaign was full of shit but they put their finger in their ears and sang ‘project fear’. People can accuse me of sneering all they want but none of this is on people who voted remain.

The leave voters in places like Sunderland and Cornwall have sewn the wind, they are about to reap the whirlwind. They were angry because they felt other regions had more money so their solution was to reduce the pot for everyone. They now have the same portion of a smaller pot minus EU funding. Slow clap.

@Eng123

Leavers, you have hurt my future and the future of my children. You are despicable.

There has been some really good points made by leavers on this thread and remainders have engaged with them and a surprisingly decent discussion has developed and then there's this...

I'm a staunch remainer but am disgusted by the abuse meted out from so many remainers.

I say bring it on. If only to put to bed all these doom and gloom prophesies that are doing the rounds that we’re going to hell in a handcart. Better to go for no deal than sell our soul to the devil by agreeing to insane demands by the EU. Why go through all this to still have to bow down to EU rules at the end of it?

They’re not insane demands are they though.

But this is what is being portrayed by elements of the media, therefore it is the prevailing narrative.

@whatshalliget

They’re not insane demands are they though.

But this is what is being portrayed by elements of the media, therefore it is the prevailing narrative.

Asking us to not only continue to follow all of the existing rules but also any new ones dreamt up after our departure is a pretty insane demand. No same leader would agree to that.

Leavers, you have hurt my future and the future of my children. You are despicable.

There has been some really good points made by leavers on this thread and remainders have engaged with them and a surprisingly decent discussion has developed and then there's this... hmm

I'm a staunch remainer but am disgusted by the abuse meted out from so many remainers.

The first sentence is entirely true, though. Leavers have damaged the future prospects for many of their fellow Brits. And they’ve caused a lot of heartache for some families. Most importantly, many of them aren’t sorry and would do the same again.

All trade deals require compromise.

This is where saying things like ‘we’re fed up with experts’ gets you. Suddenly everyone thinks that they are an economist, or thinks they understand international trade when in fact they know very little.

Many industries have said that a no-deal will be catastrophic, and yet people still think ‘nah, it’ll all be alright’

Well we are all about to find out, aren’t we.

So we need to do no deal to bring the EU to our demands? What utter crap.

The EU is not facing food shortages because of no deal.

OP, you are probably right. Most who voted leave probably expected it all to be done and dusted by now without the need for the current transition period.

Some wanted a fair deal, some wanted no deal.

I agree with @thegcatsmother

No deal will be tough but isn't forever. The EU will negotiate differently if we are not chained by the title of 'a leaving country' and deadlines. They need to look at UK as the would any country signing a trade deal with them. This isn't the case now. We are being treated poorly to 'set an example'.

I don’t think it is insane for both sides to be able to review tariffs etc if the other side makes important changes to standards etc.

Given the fact that this government will certainly try to lower some standards, I am reassured that the EU is asking for this.

From their side, the UK is geographically and economically very close, so it is not possible to compare the deals they might have with countries that are much further away and with whom they have less trade involvement.

Russia is surely the one country rejoicing most at all this crap

Yes. They are the only true winners here, and I believe they were pulling the strings more than people realise in both the Brexit vote and Trumps election:
Yes because no-one in the UK is capable of critical thinking. We are all easily manipulated by those who wanted the UK to leave the EU it who wanted Trump in office in the US. Only those who voted to stay in the EU or didn't vote for Trump are the intelligent, sane ones.

The U.K. has said that the whole point of Brexit is that is wants to diverge from the EU. Of course the EU needs to be able to protect itself from that divergence.

The U.K. will negotiate differently when it faces the reality of a no deal. I doubt we’ll even get to January before Johnson caves in, given that the ports are already overwhelmed.

I don't think David Cameron, who called the referendum, expected we would end up there either. This is a massive lesson in unintended consequences (if you don't think more widely than your own immediate bubble ).
I think DC thought he would settle the euro-sceptic members of his party by giving them the referendum they wanted and them losing. No thought given at all to what would happen if they won - either by DC or the ones calling for leave.
I have two very close friends of almost 40 years who voted leave. Our friendship is continuing simply by us largely ignoring the massive Brexit elephant in the room. In some ways, Covid has helped with this as we have something else legitimate and huge to talk about, but I can't entirely get over what they helped to unleash.
The flap of a single butterfly's wing, the tap on a single small domino, and look where we are now.

Calm, you can be as goady as you like, but I didn’t say that. If you truly believe that there was no Russian influence on these two events, great for you

This was always going to happen. The EU never had any intention of anything other than a punitive stance. We should have left 4 years ago.

So in what way is the EU dealing with us more punitively than any other third country (ie country outside the EU)?

The EU is following the rules. The same rules that we helped write.

Everything Christmas1935 said.

@Bluegrass

No deal was supposed to be a million to one according to Johnson.

We’ve become the Millwall of nations - “no one likes us, we don’t care!!” all shouted with the same swagger and hint of violence while decent people grab their children and go the other way. It’s an absolute tragedy what has happened to this country. To go from being a gateway to to Europe and a powerful voice in one of the wealthiest trading blocks on the planet, to a mismanaged outcast, riddles with division, self loathing and completely lacking in a coherent vision for our future. The best we can do now apparently is “survive”. It makes me feel sick.

As an American in the godforsaken trump era, i share your pain. The ignorant have prevailed.

The first sentence is entirely true, though. Leavers have damaged the future prospects for many of their fellow Brits. And they’ve caused a lot of heartache for some families. Most importantly, many of them aren’t sorry and would do the same again.

No they've done what they believed to be best for themselves on their families. Unfortunately the two collide. There's no reason whatsoever that they should be sorry or wring their hands and promise they wouldn't do it again if they had their time. This is the problem. Remainers behaving as though they're the victim of some hard faced, pre mediated, vicious personal attack. They're not. Their political views just don't meet. This though, is the state of politics all over. If you don't hold my views then you're "evil" "thick" "knuckle dragging" "despicable" - all descriptors used on this thread. Framing those who don't agree with you politically, in this way, is dangerous and leaves very little room for discussion or compromise. After all why would a "good" person (remainer) enter into a dialogue with a "bad" person (leaver)? "Good" can never allow "evil" to have a voice.

There is a Brexit corner for this type of thread.

Aka. Stop boring the shit out of everyone with the same old same old

After all why would a "good" person (remainer) enter into a dialogue with a "bad" person (leaver)? "Good" can never allow "evil" to have a voice.

When Leave won, Theresa May soon made it clear that it was a “winner takes all” situation. Remainers would get no say in the type of Brexit we would have. We were just expected to shut up, accept the loss of our rights and freedoms and await our instructions.

I will never forgive the government for this, or the people who supported them.