To think that there must be very few people who voted to leave the EU and thought we’d be in this position now

[Butterflyfluff]

No deal deadline is tomorrow and Johnson is now spinning that as the best jolly jape ever

That’s a far cry from his referendum and subsequent promises of getting the best deal ever

Are there many leavers who actually wanted and thought we’d end up with no deal?

Any one who voted to exit the EU should have been aware of the possibility it could happen with no deal. So I’m not sure where any confusion comes from. I personally am more than happy with an exit from the EU with no deal, it just means we will be on the World grade refs.

Even the Vote Leave lobby knew this would result in perfect storm.

Feel quite sorry for the poor and not very bright who were sold a pup. They couldn’t have known that it was about protecting the mega rich from fair taxation. They see their own poverty and be,invective Farage’s et al’s lies about the causes.

Furious at those who claim not to be racist or thick, but swear they knew where the exit would take us. To walk knowingly into the mess about to hit so many is just beyond turkeys voting for Christmas.

Appalled at the corrupt, self-serving government and the stream of lies.

remainers voted for the status quo- leavers voted for change. sadly it looks like the changes are going to be massively for the worse-
if i were a leaver i would be massively fucked off at this but tbf most seem quite happy with going from sunlit uplands to 'we will survive'.

I don’t think any other outcome was ever likely.

Fucking Cameron.

Fucking Tories.

Fucking Farage.

Fucking Juncker.

Fucking fucking Boris Johnson.

As a leaver I'm not at all surprised in the slightest that we are now at the 11th hour without a deal. We want to control take back control and they don't want us to. BJ will stick to his guns. I really think the likes of Mercel have underestimated him and expected us to come round and give in. We are not going to.

Johnson is unfit for Prime Minister in every sense of the word.
He's not sticking to his guns; he simply has no idea what to do.

so you knew they were all lying about how easy and brilliant it would be?

and you feel trading without agreements under wto terms we haveno say in is taking back control?

A look at Google Trends shows barely any mention of a no-deal Brexit until mid-2018, two years after the vote. It was never presented as either a desirable or likely outcome around the time of the referendum - it wasn't talked about at all!

apparently most leavers knew they were all lying about the deals and just didnt care.

My mum (80) sadly died last year. One of the last things she said was that she was glad that she was still a citizen of the EU. She had just live through WW2 and could just remember it. Very little Dunkirk spirit and help your neighbour instead it was everyone for themselves to survive and those with the most money didn’t suffer food wise (as much). With the advent of Thatcherism and even more the I’m all right attitude how do leavers think all this will go. 16year olds don’t want to spend weeks in the freezing cold sea for a pittance. I live in an ex train town , apparently we can go back to engineering , even though the engineering sites have been built on and there’s the little issue of lack of skills. There is a romanticised idealism about post EU Britain spun by leavers but unlike Mills & Boon there isn’t going to be a happy ending.

How come so many leave enthusiasts claim no deal is what they wanted all along, but then go on to state that no deal is the EU’s fault ?

@thegcatsmother I said RESPECTIVELY ie the point about defensive referred to NATO and the Russia/ China vetoes to UNSC.

We had a lot more influence inside the EU than we will outside it, that's a given. We had our opt-out from the Euro, from ever closer union, we got passporting that massively benefited OUR financial services. We were prime architects of the single market. I think you are the one kidding yourself.

The US and Nafta is a poor analogy with the U.K. and EU because the US is massively stronger than its (two) trading partners. The GDP of Mexico is 10 times smaller than US. So of course it can't demand the concessions of the US that EU can from us. It needs the US more than they need it - a familiar Brexiteer argument which was essentially bollocks. We are the Mexico here

Theresa May's choice was accept the EU's sequencing or ... no negotiations. I'm not sure how you think she could have got the EU to back down.

I don't think you've really refuted my point that ever closer union is an unshakeable destiny for all EU members - and anyway we didn't need to leave now 'just in case' ...

Regarding moving, in the country I am in, until 31 December a British person could move here at will, stay in practice as long as they liked (Brits living here for 10+ years without registering) and if they found a job on day 2, then they could get registered and start work within weeks. Post 1 Jan, they can stay a max of 90 days in 180 unless they apply for full time fiscal residency. They will need a visa, employer sponsorship or around 20k euros per year in income. In other words, freedom of movement (of labour if you want to be pedantic, although as I said plenty of Brits lived here without working) will be massively curtailed. I'm not sure how this is any kind of benefit but perhaps you can enlighten me. There appear to be a lot of very pissed off Brits here.

Dynamic alignment is only another way of saying non-regression on standards. Because you can't have a situation where the EU makes a ruling in EU that means U.K. companies are more competitive within the single market. And some supranational body's got to oversee it. IF there's a deal, I suspect there will be some compromise on how impacts on competition are assessed and on independent panels before ECJ - but the EU aren't going to concede the non-regression principle and why should they?

On 1 January the UK's long slow slide into irrelevance is going to hit turbo. Followed quite possibly by its disintegration if Scotland gets another referendum. I'm very lucky to be out of it.

@Alaimo That graph is very telling.

Typo in my earlier post - this should obviously read:

I don't think you've really refuted my point that ever closer union isn't an unshakeable destiny for all EU members - and anyway we didn't need to leave now 'just in case' ..

YABU. All this is detail. Leavers wanted out and they got that in 2016 thanks to that fool Cameron. So long as we leave on 1/1/21 most leavers that I know are indifferent to the actual terms. (I voted "remain" BTW).

But how many of those who googled it and did reasearch then went on to view it as a likely or desirable outcome is the real question

If the UK govt aren't agreeing to it, don't you think that's because it's not favourable to them, ergo UK being punished by the EU?

British exceptionalism again.

The EU vigorously pushing an agenda that is good for the EU can’t possibly be because the EU is prioritising its own interests, and using its not insignificant might as a trading and political bloc to do so. Just like in every trade negotiation on the planet.

No, it simply must be All About Britain. And the EU must be acting to punish us, not just prioritising its own interests.

It’s such a bizarre way of thinking. It’s almost narcissism on a national level.

I think eventually the UK will rejoin a version of the EU.

@brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

How come so many leave enthusiasts claim no deal is what they wanted all along, but then go on to state that no deal is the EU’s fault ?

Well, indeed.

[quote timeforanewstart]@Europilgrim how could we decide what direction exactly the eu goes in , we had one vote of more of others agree thats it [/quote]
We had veto over significant areas of law, including membership, and treaty change also required unanimity.

Moreover no council votes were based on one member, one vote. Votes were weighted by population, and many were taken by qualified not simple majority by member states. The role of the EP had also expanded to provide additional democratic oversight.

Oh please not the remain vs leave arguments again. Leave voters were told they didn’t know what they voted for, that they were fools, etc. At every opportunity when asked to cast a vote, they came out with a resounding shout of leave. Let’s give it a rest. The ship has sailed. They know what they voted for. Now as a nation let’s come together and build this country.

Now as a nation let’s come together and build this country.

I think people would be more prepared to do that if there wasn’t still such total and blatant gaslighting going on.

Prerequisite of getting people to come together: transparency and honesty.

Unfortunately in quite short supply.

We need a deal with our biggest trading partner. If BJ doesn’t agree to one bow then I imagine we will be begging for one by late Jan when there are serious food and medical shortages.

I always had a feeling the French would dig their heels in over fishing rights. Can't help thinking it will be like the Cod Wars all over again, and the RN seems to be getting ready for it.

I remember some Brexiteers seemed to think a no deal meant that nothing changed in terms of trade
rules - it just meant the UK got out of the EU laws and migration parts.