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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that there must be very few people who voted to leave the EU and thought we’d be in this position now

189 replies

Butterflyfluff · 12/12/2020 11:13

No deal deadline is tomorrow and Johnson is now spinning that as the best jolly jape ever

That’s a far cry from his referendum and subsequent promises of getting the best deal ever

Are there many leavers who actually wanted and thought we’d end up with no deal?

OP posts:
DdraigGoch · 13/12/2020 01:50

This article roughly sums up my views:
www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/12/12/no-isnt-brexit-have-done-better-staying-quasi-empire/

TLDR:

  • EFTA would have been a good compromise, bearing in mind that the vote wasn't exactly a landslide. It would have got us out of the institutions we found problematic (CU, ECJ, CFP, CAP etc.) while keeping us in the Single Market. Even better, EFTA is run independently of the EU so the EU couldn't have blocked us joining.
  • Prominent remainers didn't attempt to find a compromise, instead they fought for second referendums and other ways to block our exit outright. Had they instead attempted to work alongside leavers, some kind of exit acceptable to both sides might have resulted.
  • Theresa May didn't have a clue what Brexit was about. She had no clue about the economic or democratic objections to EU membership. After her time as Home Secretary, she assumed that it was all about immigration. She therefore threw away all of the cards the UK held, in pursuit of border controls.
  • With TM having severely weakened the UK's position by capitulating to every demand, the EU saw opportunities to start asking for some really unreasonable stuff. A sensible deal is in the interests of both sides, however the EU is prepared to do harm unto its own economy in order to make Britain an example to other nations considering leaving (just ask the Greeks about their government being bullied into submission).
  • Those really unreasonable demands include one which requires the UK to adhere to not only existing EU rules but also any new ones introduced too. They do not expect the UK to agree to this.
  • Barnier had offered May a Canada-style deal but she had declined. Boris was quite happy with the Canadian solution but suddenly the option was no longer up for discussion.
  • They are now threatening measures which they have never implemented before, not even where rogue states (China/Russia/Iran) are concerned. Blocking all air travel is a bit of an empty threat though given that we are in the middle of a pandemic anyway. As an environmentalist, I wouldn't mourn the loss of mass aviation anyway.
  • Despite preferring an EFTA outcome, I would still vote to leave. There may be some disruption. It will now be impossible to know how much is attributable to Brexit as the pandemic has brought its own disruption - 11,000 PPE containers clogging up Felixstowe for a start. The economy is more dynamic than many people give it credit for. Politicians like to flatter themselves that they exert a large amount of power over the economy, taking credit for growth and blaming their opponents for contraction but in reality the economy just bumbles along in spite of the activities of Westminster/Whitehall. It'll bounce back, given half a chance.
JamieLeeCurtains · 13/12/2020 01:59

Sunday Times lead story online is 'Ministers tell supermarkets to stockpile for No Deal Brexit', which will be a bit a tricky with the 10-miles-and-growing lorry queues into Calais being reported by the Sunday Telegraph.

Helmetbymidnight · 13/12/2020 07:52

Now as a nation let’s come together and build this country

what do you propose we do?

bullet points are fine.

Helmetbymidnight · 13/12/2020 07:55

Sunday Times lead story online is 'Ministers tell supermarkets to stockpile for No Deal Brexit', which will be a bit a tricky with the 10-miles-and-growing lorry queues into Calais being reported by the Sunday Telegraph.

dont worry- brexiteers absolutely knew they were being lied to four years ago, they knew it was going to be a no deal and a massive struggle for years and their answer is that remainers now have to rebuild the country.

EnPoinsettia · 13/12/2020 07:57

@Bluegrass

No deal was supposed to be a million to one according to Johnson.

We’ve become the Millwall of nations - “no one likes us, we don’t care!!” all shouted with the same swagger and hint of violence while decent people grab their children and go the other way. It’s an absolute tragedy what has happened to this country. To go from being a gateway to to Europe and a powerful voice in one of the wealthiest trading blocks on the planet, to a mismanaged outcast, riddles with division, self loathing and completely lacking in a coherent vision for our future. The best we can do now apparently is “survive”. It makes me feel sick.

This
MargosKaftan · 13/12/2020 08:00

I dodnt vote leave, but after the vote, I presumed, as many did, we were aiming for a Norway style arrangement. It would mean sticking to eu rules but no longer having a say in constructing the rules. Not ideal, but presumed there would be various tub thumping and then unfortunately that's were we'd end up, not 100% what leave wanted, not 100% what remain wanted, a compromise that reflected the almost 50/50 split, and leave the EU free to move towards closer integration without us being difficult.

It really was May's insistence that what all leave voters wanted was to end free movement of people that has lead to this. If we were happy to accept that, pretty much we could have had a straight forward deal done a couple of years ago.

lifesnotaspectatorsport · 13/12/2020 08:16

@DdraigGoch I agree that EFTA might have been a compromise that reflected a narrow Leave win. It was far from guaranteed that we'd get it though as I seem to remember Norway was against. And it meant continued financial contributions, ECJ etc so it's hard to see the rabid ERG lot going for it. Brexit in name only. Pointless but might have satisfied the many people who just wanted 'out' without knowing what it meant.

I don't think you can blame Remainers for seeking a second referendum or clarification on what kind of 'out' was meant when Leavers were also trying to take extreme positions on the other side. It was hardly a thumping victory.

As with pp you seem to think Theresa May had a choice in agreeing to the EU's demands on the sequencing of talks. How? What leverage did she have? I agree she was useless and her disastrous unilateral decisions to trigger A50 and set all the ridiculous red lines was the beginning of the long road to this point.

Barnier did not offer May a Canada deal. Canada is and was a model for the type of arrangement on offer but it would always need to be negotiated. And as people here have explained till we're blue in the face, the U.K. is a much bigger market and much closer to the EU so more stringent controls were always going to be required. Just think about it for a moment. If Canada changes some regulations that make their, let's say, car parts a few cents cheaper than those produced in Germany, that is wiped out by the extra transport costs to ship across the Atlantic. In the U.K.'s case a similar act could give their manufacturers a competitive advantage because we are equally close to the buyers in Europe.

They've also just offered a 6 month extension to aviation. It's not their fault the U.K. have been pissing about talking about these same issues for months and months. It's entirely predictable that without a deal a different arrangement is needed for aviation, haulage etc.

lifesnotaspectatorsport · 13/12/2020 08:22

@Goodnessandlight Well if the leave vote was so clear why have the Tory Brexiteers spent 4 years arguing about a deal?

Give over with the Blitz spirit nonsense please.

jasjas1973 · 13/12/2020 08:27

@thegcatsmother So having been on the Brussels "gravy train" made your money and retired to Cornwall, you now find fault with it all?

The Five Eyes has plenty of critics and its been accused of circumventing privacy laws within the EU, what exactly does NZ or Australia contribute to european security?
Are you telling us that should the UK come across intelligence of an attack in Germany, it wouldn't pass this on to Berlin?

btw the EU isn't a country.

What do you feel about the loss of criminal databases we will no longer have access too? DB's our police forces use routinely.

Eyewhisker · 13/12/2020 08:30

The Sunday Times today on focus groups of Remain and Leave voters is dispiriting reading. The only unanimous view is that Johnson is a bit of a shit.

The Leave voters thought that without immigrants there could be more community spirit and that we’d stop importing products and make our own. They seem to think time can be rewound to their childhoods.

Their children and grandchildren will never forgive them for ruining their futures for the fantasy of their own past.

TheRubyRedshoes · 13/12/2020 08:50

Are there criminal data bases?. I remember a time when criminals were flooding to the UK with no breaks on them at our boarder at all? No data base to flag up anything?
Coupled with the difference in punative measures for crimes in other countries it was a total free for all.

It's great if there is now a data base its a shame it wasn't set up before working restrictions were lifted though? Another example of cart before horse eu operation style.

I'm sure we will still share information but it will be much tighter and not splurged to all the eu countries.

Eng123 · 13/12/2020 08:53

Leavers, you have hurt my future and the future of my children. You are despicable.

jasjas1973 · 13/12/2020 09:00

@TheRubyRedshoes The UK border force can and does stop EU criminals from coming here, these DB's have been used for years & nothing new.

But if the UK doesn't enforce the rules, thats our problem not the EU's.

For example, Albania isn't in the EU yet Albanian criminal gangs operate in the UK.

Post no-deal Brexit, we will not know if the tourist from Spain, allowed to stay here for 6 months with no visa, is a convicted sex offender or not.

TheRubyRedshoes · 13/12/2020 09:00

Jassy I think trust has gone on both sides after what happened in parliament under Bercow, holding the country and the vote to ransom, that was the biggest gaslight, kidnapping of democracy I've ever witnessed.

Imagine if Remainers in Parliament had instead demanded to work with the 'other side' in absolute good faith on a war footing to secure the best deal? Instead time and energy has been wasted on in fighting a faction who gaslighted the leave vote and thought they could carry on as they chose?

TheRubyRedshoes · 13/12/2020 09:01

Jas

Just a point on @ etiquette... When someone is on the thread you don't need to do it and clutter up their in box

TheRubyRedshoes · 13/12/2020 09:04

Jas that must be new because its well known now that for years a cursory glance at an eu passport waved through many a criminal from all over the eu..

I don't understand the... '' that's not the fault of the eu '', earlier on there was no functioning database, criminals have had a free for all, for decades all over the eu?

If the UK can't cope with certain systems or makes the wrong choices then surely its another sign it cannot operate under eu laws for the best outcome of the people of the UK?

Christmas1935 · 13/12/2020 09:08

For clarity I didn't vote in the referendum. I have serious concerns about the ability for the EU to successfully implement EU wide laws that work for each of the member states, and that going forward there were likely to be some serious problems - but I didn't think the Leave campaign was an accurate refection of what would happen.

So I'm probably classer as a Brexiteer, although I'd probably say i'm in no mans land.

The problem we have at the moment is that this is not really a trade negotiation, it's a political negotiation.

The UK is no longer an empire, but it was a big part of the EU. It was a rather large financial contributor and was one of the founding members.

The UK's decision to leave does have some ramifications for the smaller countries, who are finding that being in the EU is not always a panacea.

Greece have had major financial problems, and being tied into the Euro has made it more difficult for them. It may have been better for Greece to revert to the drachma, but it wouldn't politically look good for the EU and would compromise the confidence in the Euro. So Greece are having to deal with financial issues and bear the brunt of the migrant crisis, for which a lot of its supposed partners are unwilling to "take their share".

Hungary and Poland's current stance is not really compatible with the EU's values, but they can't be forced to align with France or Germany as they are technically separate states. Turkey would like to join, and the EU are refusing, this is a harder stance to take given Hungary and Poland's political views are starting to lean more Turkey's way than the EU's.

Hungary and Poland leaving is discouraged because it weakens the image that the EU is all powerful and that the member states are all better if they stick together.

Covid 19 has just emphasised the fact that in reality, when the chips are down, the member states don't work that well together. Look at the problems Italy had, Germany took some patients from Italy at the crisis point, but there wasn't really any serious help, even from those countries less affected by Covid 19.

The EU still has not approved the Pfizer vaccine. It's not just about the UK getting in there first (someone had to be first) but now Canada, the USA, Kuwait, Qatar etc have all approved it, but the EU machine is still turning slowly. They don't think the EU will get the vaccine until January now, a month after the UK began vaccinating.

Hungary wanted the Russian vaccine and was convinced to wait with the rest of the EU. They might be regretting that decision now. Whilst Hungary technically can approve emergency use of the russian vaccine even within the EU, there is a lot of political pressure not to, so the EU is seen to be cohesive.

The UK is very close to the EU, and is going to be competition for the EU - so agreeing to a good trade deal for both parties is politically difficult.

The reality is that the deal on the table may well be, for the UK, worse than a No Deal. There is absolutely no point in giving up a seat at the table, but being bound by its decisions.

We can't decide to stay within the EU because the electorate will continue to vote for Brexit, and we'll end up with someone like the BNP in charge, who have no other policies, or ideas on how to run the country, other than to crash out of the EU.

If the UK signs up to this deal, they have a deal, and the job is done.

If they take the option of no deal - a trade deal can always be signed at a later stage.

I'm reluctant to say it, because obviously a trade deal which works pretty well for both sides was the preferable option, but it may be better to walk away now, and return to trade talks once both side have had time to accept that the UK is not part of the EU and cannot be forced to agree for its future laws.

No other country has had to agree to abide by the EU's laws, without a say in the laws themselves. That is because they are "outsiders" and it's a ridiculous request and would not be accepted in any independent trade deal.

No deal is painful for the UK AND the member states of the EU. No deal will not be popular with the citizens of the member states, regardless of what Brussels thinks. The politicians in the member states will need to account to their citizens for the choices made, which will apply pressure.

Spain for example - they export a lot of food to the UK, and tourism from the UK, particularly expats who set up second homes or relocate permanently there, is very important to their economy. They won't want it to be harder for the UK tourists to come to them than go to Morocco for example. They want to keep their share of tourism, especially post Covid.

The trade deal on the table has to be rejected by the UK, because it makes no logical sense.

Fishing is important because the way the EU want fishing rights to run is contrary to us not being a member state, not because it's worth so much money to us. The comment that the waters are ours, but not the fish within in them, is ludicrous.

To save losing face, and to deter other people from leaving, the EU has made the deal so onerous that it can't be accepted.

The UK do now need to say no, and to walk away. Both parties need time and space with the UK as a non EU member to process what the terms of a trade deal really need to be.

CherryPavlova · 13/12/2020 09:12

The Sunday times article demonstrates that we are leaving because some people are too dense to be trusted with a vote.
Some people high racism behind words like identity and community.
Some people think their xenophobic views are more important than people being safe and able to afford food.

So, so sad. So immoral of Farage and Gove et al to use those who have most to lose to secure their own finances and futures. Gove, May, Cameron, Johnson weren’t even supporters of an EU exit before they realised the power it might give them personally.

Cummings who was the driver of the car crash was always pro leave. Strongly so. I start believing conspiracy theories about his alignment with Russia.

jasjas1973 · 13/12/2020 09:15

True, UK criminals used to travel to Spain to escape justice, the driver for DB's was the enlargement of the EU to eastern europe and the formation of the Schengen area.

We will now go back to a time when there was no DB's, is this what you want?

We ve only been in the EEC for 4 decades, so its a bit unfair to state "decades"

Having a properly funded Border force is hardly a EU law or requirement, we have cut back these areas for many years, meaning that control of our borders has been lost.

I won't @ you if you don't call me Jassy, that was the name of my cat that only recently died.

Songsofexperience · 13/12/2020 09:16

Russia is surely the one country rejoicing most at all this crap.

AethelsWhiteGoose · 13/12/2020 09:18

So depressing that the uk voted to make itself poorer all because Johnson wanted to be PM. Because that was what brexit was about, his dream of leading the country, he certainly didn’t have what best for the uk population in mind. It was all so unnecessary and avoidable. Still sovereignty eh...

Longtalljosie · 13/12/2020 09:24

I think most people who voted leave thought we would be awash with cash following the £350m/ week advert. It wouldn’t matter how we crafted the future - the EU was where all our money was going. The point that it would be a net loss was a more complex argument and therefore gained no traction. A full-throated Remain argument was never made because Corbyn didn’t want to alienate the Benn-tradition Eurosceptic left.

JassyRadlett · 13/12/2020 09:35

Jassy I think trust has gone on both sides after what happened in parliament under Bercow, holding the country and the vote to ransom, that was the biggest gaslight, kidnapping of democracy I've ever witnessed.

Imagine if Remainers in Parliament had instead demanded to work with the 'other side' in absolute good faith on a war footing to secure the best deal? Instead time and energy has been wasted on in fighting a faction who gaslighted the leave vote and thought they could carry on as they chose?

This is the sort of thing I’m talking about. The utter blind insistence that the losing side, who weren’t in political power in any way at the time, should have been the ones to do the ‘reaching out’.

It ignores the utter throwing away of any goodwill by Theresa May, enthusiastically backed by key leavers. The ‘saboteurs’ headlines. The trampling of any idea of loser’s consent. And yet still it’s remainers who were supposed to insist that the government - who had already set out its hardline red lines - should work with them. I assume on the government’s terms.

And we see it still on this thread. People seem to think we don’t have access to the internet, can’t see exactly what Vote Leave campaigned on when it came to trade, and somehow don’t realise that these blatant attempts to rewrite history are incredibly damaging to the ‘coming together’ people claim to want.

The thing with compromise is that both sides have to do a bit of it. Given we’re hurtling towards the kind of Brexit that is every Remainer’s worst nightmare, can anyone point to any efforts made by the winning side to bring people together and unify the country?

JassyRadlett · 13/12/2020 09:37

I won't @ you if you don't call me Jassy, that was the name of my cat that only recently died.

It is also possible that people are confusing two posters with similar usernames.

I’m so sorry about your cat.

Eng123 · 13/12/2020 09:39

@Christmas1935
The uk is not of of the founding nations of the EU! Speak to Charles De Gaulle!
Ok the transfer to the EU did happen later but the UK is in no way a founder here. What are you going to tell my children when we loose our house because you think we weren't "sovereign" as a member of the EU? Understand the people you have hurt!