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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that there must be very few people who voted to leave the EU and thought we’d be in this position now

189 replies

Butterflyfluff · 12/12/2020 11:13

No deal deadline is tomorrow and Johnson is now spinning that as the best jolly jape ever

That’s a far cry from his referendum and subsequent promises of getting the best deal ever

Are there many leavers who actually wanted and thought we’d end up with no deal?

OP posts:
thegcatsmother · 12/12/2020 15:15

I think it is the way we have conducted ourselves since the vote that has done the most damage, I think the way that Mrs May allowed parliament to conduct itself was daft; and she should not have allowed the sequencing that the EU wanted for the talks. I note that whilst the rest of the UK was aware of the timescales involved, those in parliament chose to wait til the last possible minute to block Brexit. No surprise that Bercow didn't get a peerage - his conduct was disgraceful.

Our voice on the international stage now carries far less weight as it was previously amplified by our central role as a member of the EU. I disagree. There is only one other EU member state that has NATO membership, and a permanent seat on the UN Security council, and that is France. What we have, that France doesn't, is membership of the Five Eyes. The EU was supported by our being a member, not the other way around imo. Why do you think the Commission is so incandescent that we are leaving?

We have haemorrhaged goodwill with our anti- European rhetoric and continue to show a complete lack of understanding of what the EU actually stands for Not at all ; I didn't notice that people turned away from me, and refused to take my money, or walked around me in the street, from the time the result was announced until the time I moved back to the UK from Belgium last year. Indeed, dh worked at the other major ITO in Brussels, with 30 allies and 20 partnership countries, and he didn't notice any difference in his professional dealings with people.

The EU stands for ever closer union; the acquis, the ratchet, the sublimation of the Nation state into the USE. You may want that. I don't.

the free movement of goods, services and people You don't understand - it's not free movement of people - it's free movement of Labour and you either have to have a nob, be certain of finding one, or prove that you can support yourself with sufficient capital not to be a drain on the member state you want to live in.

www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/41/free-movement-of-workers

The need to reform the EU seems no more pressing to me than the need to reform our own internal political systems, as the advantages of membership far outweigh the negatives. My husband came out of a 3 year secondment to the EU saying that he had never seen a more undemocratic organisation and was appalled that it was allowed to continue. The wastage is immense in monetary terms; the Commission manipulates the opaque procedures to achieve its own ends, and please, don't kid yourself that the EU is about anything other than the centralising of power into the hands of the Commission. At least we can vote our politicians out - can we get shot of Van der Leyen, or Charles Michel? Nope. Did we have a say in their election? Nope. VdL is there as Merkel wanted her out of Germany as the shit was about to hit the fan in the German defence ministry, and VdL was implicated.

I don't think that there are that many advantages really to membership. I want the UK to be able to set its own Foreign policy, as opposed to that mandated by the EEAS. I don't think that one size fits all in relation to policies from tax to pensions to inheritance laws, and I think our legal systems are too diverse for it ever to have worked. The European system to a great extent is Napoleonic Code; you can only do what is specifically permitted; ours is Common Law and Statute; unless it is specifically prohibited we are allowed to do it. You may not see the difference, but it is there.

We crippled our own ability to plan, to agree what we wanted to achieve, to put ourselves in the best possible position before starting negotiations. We had to trigger A50 when we did as under TFEU and TEU it was slated to move to QMV so it could have been blocked had we waited. As to what we wanted to achieve - what you want and I want is probably poles apart; there would not have been any more agreement on that, than there has been on Brexit anyway.

If you can't see that the CAP needs reforming; if you don't query why payments from the CFP are made to landlocked countries (who arguably, have no interest in the fish stocks in the Channel, as they have no coastline); if you don't wonder what Lagarde is up to at the ECB and are happy to wave it all away with a 'oh, it doesn't matter', then you do not have your eyes open.

I don't often agree with a Labour politician, but Wedgewood Benn was right about us joining; we should not have done it.

Justgivemewine · 12/12/2020 15:19

Are there many leavers who actually wanted and thought we’d end up with no deal?

I doubt it, they seriously thought we’d be able to have our cake and eat it. 🙄

Funnily enough all the brexiteers I know have suddenly gone very quiet after spending 3 years smugly going on about ’remoaners’ and ‘you lost get over it.’

Nah we all lost, well done 🙄

VinylDetective · 12/12/2020 15:23

Johnson was elected a year ago because he had “an oven ready deal”. What happened to it?

TheRubyRedshoes · 12/12/2020 15:26

Interesting post the g cat. Hopefully it will provide some reassurance to some people. But as I said in an earlier post on this or another thread, I have found people naval gaze and only concern themselves with what impacts on them.

JamieLeeCurtains · 12/12/2020 16:51

I don't often agree with a Labour politician, but Wedgewood Benn was right about us joining; we should not have done it.

Well, we did.

And the question is, is leaving this way what people voted for?

Songsofexperience · 12/12/2020 17:02

I've heard leavers say you don't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.
Well, the problem now is that we're not making an omelette, we're trying to put our eggs back in their shells. Not gonna work.

FastMovingLuxuryGoods · 12/12/2020 17:06

If you delve into the detail of spending you'll see huge waste eg 2019 there was an est 4 billion unaccounted for

Brexit has already cost the UK - just us alone - an estimated £130 billion.

FarTooSkinny · 12/12/2020 17:07

I'm looking forward to this forthcoming naval gun-battle in the channel. I have a friend with a place on the coast and we will watch it from the veranda

Brighterthansunflowers · 12/12/2020 17:11

I don’t think they really gave it much thought at all tbh, too busy shouting people down for predicting exactly this mess

onlythepianoplayer · 12/12/2020 17:20

For my part, I'm glad that we can hold our politicians directly accountable again

You should have done that for the last 5 years, then you wouldn't be in this mess! There was nothing stopping you

the UK is hardly an international pariah for voting to leave the EU

you're an international laughing stock. Literally nobody understands why anyone would do something so epically detrimental to their own country.

BerriesAndPineCones · 12/12/2020 17:24

I'm sickened that my parents and sister have damaged my children's future.

Europilgrim · 12/12/2020 17:25

He said when we see the direction the EU goes in of undemocratic elite rule and protectionist trading we will be glad we got out when we did

This reasoning doesn't make sense when you remember that if we were in the EU we would be deciding what direction the EU was going in. We were the EU! For some people, it has always been "us and them" and this is basically the whole problem.

Helmetbymidnight · 12/12/2020 17:28

I think many of them didn't give a shit then, and don't give a shit now.

Many of them are extremely well insulated baby boomers who really go for Boris's rhetoric. They just want to 'take back control' and the fact that under WTO we'll have way less power and influence doesn't bother them at all. The fact that we'll be spending way more than we save doesn't matter.

Feel-good slogans are key for them. Nothing else matters.

ListeningQuietly · 12/12/2020 17:31

Its better to be inside the tent pissing out
than outside the tent pissing in

lifesnotaspectatorsport · 12/12/2020 17:39

@thegcatsmother Your reasons are better argued than most but I have to disagree on several points:

Diminished status: yes, we're still in NATO and UNSC but those two organisations are respectively defensive rather than proactive and crippled by Russia and China vetoes. We were an important bridge between countries like the US and the EU and that is gone. Our influence WITHIN the EU, which is still one of the world's most successful trading blocs, is totally gone. We are also undeniably an international laughing stock - have you read the NY Times recently? It's not only the European press shaking their heads.

Other EU states may have their own political issues but they have not shot themselves in their own economic foot Hmm

Mrs May allowed parliament to conduct itself was daft; and she should not have allowed the sequencing that the EU wanted for the talks She had no choice. It was that or no talks at all. See earlier point about diminished influence.

Five Eyes is an intelligence sharing operation. Useful no doubt but not exactly a replacement for what we have lost.

We had an opt-out from ever closer union and were not without allies within the EU on that point. A twin track EU is perfectly possible and we could have shaped that as a key member. If indeed they do move towards that goal (not convinced it will happen) then they'll probably be an even more fierce competitor than they are now.

You don't understand - it's not free movement of people - it's free movement of Labour and you either have to have a nob, be certain of finding one, or prove that you can support yourself with sufficient capital not to be a drain on the member state you want to live in.
I can personally assure you that it is much easier to relocate to Europe before 31 December than it will be after, as I'm in the process of doing it. Yes you need to find a job within 3 months or have some funds but it's not a kings ransom. It will be soon. Cheers for that leavers Hmm

lifesnotaspectatorsport · 12/12/2020 17:42

Also, the EU isn't perfect - of course there is bureaucracy and wastage. But it is one of the world's most successful free trade blocs and the U.K. has benefited enormously from membership in the last 40 years.

ahola · 12/12/2020 17:49

I think a no deal was always likely to happen, because the EU have to punish the UK for leaving. They have to cripple them financially as a warning to any other countries that think they too may wish to leave (Netherlands for example).
With what is happening in Poland and Hungary, I think this is the beginning of the end of the European Project.
You can't continue to deny Turkey membership but allow the erosion of democratic rights that are going on in Hungary and Poland.

Lazypuppy · 12/12/2020 17:52

I voted to leave, but expected there to be a deal.

I think if teh gov and everyone hadn't spent so long arguing with the result and actually started negotiations we would be in a much better position

ThePerfect1IThinkNot · 12/12/2020 17:57

I voted to leave and feel totally misled. I am dismayed with where we appear to be ending up. I have dealt with massive contracts all through my working life and there have always been detailed exit plans. I have no trust for politics or politicians.

Eryouwhat · 12/12/2020 18:20

I remember posters like @silversurfer saying they were “popping the champagne open” after the results were in. I wonder if they are still?

Eryouwhat · 12/12/2020 18:21

@silverysurfer sorry

lifesnotaspectatorsport · 12/12/2020 18:22

@ahola There is a deal on offer. The U.K. government doesn't want to agree to it. Hardly a case of the EU punishing us??

Echobelly · 12/12/2020 18:26

I think there was a significant minority of leavers who just thought that more or less the day after the referendum it'd be 'Bish, bosh, European laws don't apply to us', end of story.

I think plenty of people had no notion of trade deals and so forth, and how complicated they are the massive cost of losing out on what we have.

The EU, as most of us Remain types accept, is not sainted and perfect and beyond reproach. It lacks transparency, is wasteful and doubtless dodgy in a number of areas - but the net benefits of membership and considerable and the simple meaning of working together was so important.

But, you know, fuck that because I want a blue passport Angry

nosswith · 12/12/2020 18:32

I think a significant number of people wanted no deal, probably including the 25-30% minimum who have resented us being in the EU all along and wanted out from 1973 onwards. Some but not all on the basis of xenophobia.

I expect most of the 52% who voted for Brexit expected no deal or a deal a lot sooner than now.

ahola · 12/12/2020 18:42

[quote lifesnotaspectatorsport]@ahola There is a deal on offer. The U.K. government doesn't want to agree to it. Hardly a case of the EU punishing us?? [/quote]
If the UK govt aren't agreeing to it, don't you think that's because it's not favourable to them, ergo UK being punished by the EU?

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