AIBU to have just about fucking had it with men?

[PurpleFeather]

I’m sure some of you will pile on me to tell me “it’s not all men”, but right now I don’t fucking care.

Woke up to read about more horrific sexual attacks on women along my favourite running route (there have been many lately).

Dealt with some horrific sexism in my work meeting today (a “hilarious” conversation between male members of staff as to why men are just so much smarter than women).

Ended the day by receiving an e-mail from someone I line manage about how she approached inappropriately by a customer today.

So we can’t run safely, we can’t do our jobs and be seen as “equal”, and we can’t serve customers without getting harassed.

Today I am so so so angry. I am done with making excuses for men, and giving them the benefit of the doubt (“He probably brushed past me by accident”, and “he was only joking really”, etc). I am just totally, utterly done with male privilege and male violence rearing it’s fucking ugly head in every area of my life.

Fuck the patriarchy!

@TheHoneyBadger

This is a genuine question. Going by your theory that every woman has suffered (and incidentally even though I haven't posted about it on this thread largely because of the reception I've had ) , I have been a victim. ..why am I not worthy of the same treatment of others? What have I said that is so offensive , so awful , that I am worthy of the treatment given by you and other posters?

I'm coming up to 67 years of age. At the age of roughly 18, I realised that men are utterly selfish, and vowed never to marry. I've never regretted it for one moment. Women are the opposite. I wish I'd been gay so I could have had a relationship with someone selfless.

’OP I do get angry about the behaviour of males at times but I get equally as angry at man bashing.’

’Do males ever mislead women and get pregnant to trap them?’

’Interesting that no PP has addressed my point about th comedy of female on male violence.’

’Was this supposed to be a thread where we all just talk about men and don't mention that they can suffer too?’

There’s just no point in engaging.

@Aglet

I'm coming up to 67 years of age. At the age of roughly 18, I realised that men are utterly selfish, and vowed never to marry. I've never regretted it for one moment. Women are the opposite. I wish I'd been gay so I could have had a relationship with someone selfless.

This is way too black and white, risably so All humans are inclined to be self-interested, because ( at least up until now) nearly all cultures have been patriarchal men are much better positioned to pursue their self-interest than are women. Power corrupts and men have always had too much of it.

@AuntyPasta

’OP I do get angry about the behaviour of males at times but I get equally as angry at man bashing.’

’Do males ever mislead women and get pregnant to trap them?’

’Interesting that no PP has addressed my point about th comedy of female on male violence.’

’Was this supposed to be a thread where we all just talk about men and don't mention that they can suffer too?’

There’s just no point in engaging.

I'm not entirely sure why once again someone has cherry picked sentences from posts in direct response to other posters in the first few pages of the thread and singled me out and picked on me so that everyone can jump on me and start ripping apart words I have explained 30 times and the thread has moved on quite a lot since and not read my recent interactions (particularly where I reached peace with all but one of the posters I was having those conversations with ), but given you're about the tenth person to do it , it's bouncing off me now . I've been on MN for a long time and this is the first time I've felt anywhere near close to wanting to delete the whole thing as a result of being bullied , singled out and humiliated by posters.

I think anyone looking in from the outside in the last few pages can see who the awkward, gaslighting, nasty person is and it's certainly not me

Kimchi, your posts aren’t coming across the way you think they are.

@TheHoneyBadger - gods, yes, I remember a wine-fuelled NCT night where all of us talked about the sulky strops for not wanting sex. It was ubiquitous.

(Resolved the issue with DH, he knows much better now!)

[quote Wheresmykimchi]@TheHoneyBadger

This is a genuine question. Going by your theory that every woman has suffered (and incidentally even though I haven't posted about it on this thread largely because of the reception I've had ) , I have been a victim. ..why am I not worthy of the same treatment of others? What have I said that is so offensive , so awful , that I am worthy of the treatment given by you and other posters?[/quote]
I don't want you to feel picked on or dismissed or anything you feel you have been, Kimchi, (don't want to out words in your mouth) but a lot of women are really angry about the world we are living in - and whether you agree that is appropriate or not, a lot of people (including me) find this whole subject really frustrating and rage-inducing. So I'm afraid that you are likely to get a strong response if you try to ' what about the men' on a thread about how men's behaviour is making a society that is dangerous and uncomfortable for women.

As I've said - it's not two sides of an argument, it's the same argument. PEOPLE suffer because of how different sexes are expected to behave and the roles they are expected to fulfil. You are agreeing far more than you are disagreeing.

But women who do lots of activism and awareness raising on behalf of women. It is not our job to sort out men's problems as well as our own they don't need our help anyway. They are just as capable of making a change if they collectively want things to change. Women who fight for women will have a strong response if they feel their feelings are minimised or sidelined.

So I know you feel that you are being singled out and I am reading this and noticing you listening and agreeing with some things people are saying (I have thanked you for you open mindedness myself earlier), it is still no surprise that some of your comments won't be taken well. It is because people are tired and angry.

@KiposWonderbeasts

I think anyone looking in from the outside in the last few pages can see who the awkward, gaslighting, nasty person is and it's certainly not me

Kimchi, your posts aren’t coming across the way you think they are.

@TheHoneyBadger - gods, yes, I remember a wine-fuelled NCT night where all of us talked about the sulky strops for not wanting sex. It was ubiquitous.

(Resolved the issue with DH, he knows much better now!)

I don't know how you think I think my posts are coming across , but i have taken a number of abusive posts and not responded in that manner, which was the point I was trying to make.

I haven't made any point about the issue in hand for about 20 pages .

Thank you , @TheHoneyBadgern

@PurpleFeather

I’m sure some of you will pile on me to tell me “it’s not all men”, but right now I don’t fucking care.

Woke up to read about more horrific sexual attacks on women along my favourite running route (there have been many lately).

Dealt with some horrific sexism in my work meeting today (a “hilarious” conversation between male members of staff as to why men are just so much smarter than women).

Ended the day by receiving an e-mail from someone I line manage about how she approached inappropriately by a customer today.

So we can’t run safely, we can’t do our jobs and be seen as “equal”, and we can’t serve customers without getting harassed.

Today I am so so so angry. I am done with making excuses for men, and giving them the benefit of the doubt (“He probably brushed past me by accident”, and “he was only joking really”, etc). I am just totally, utterly done with male privilege and male violence rearing it’s fucking ugly head in every area of my life.

Fuck the patriarchy!

I agree with you. DH is a wonderful and kind man, as are his friends and my DF. He does more than me around the house and garden. However, I have experienced a lot of sexism and violence at the hands of men (I was once punched in the face by a man when I rejected his advances). I have been sexually harassed more times that I care to remember, often feeling afraid and vulnerable. I am mid forties now and still it continues.

However, I don’t think using adjectives like ‘horrific’ when describing men stating that men are smarter than women is helpful, it comes across as hysterical, playing into the hands of sexist men who believe that women are over emotional, hormonal, neurotic creatures.

Lovingcountrylife
I seriously doubt that the OP gives a singular flying shit what men would make of her OP or how emotional it is.
There is nothing wrong with being emotional or angry. Men may label is 'hysteria', but that is just more misogyny.
I don't think it plays into anybody's hands. I think it just expresses righteous anger and a feeling of having reached a limit.

We need to dismantle this idea that women (or men for that matter) being emotional is a bad thing and they way to do that isn't for everyone to calm down and be less emotive.
We need to use strong words. Men aren't afraid to. They are afraid to cry and be vulnerable and that needs to change too. Emotional policing is part of the the bigger picture.

So people can express themselves in any way they like, in my book.

@Aglet

I'm coming up to 67 years of age. At the age of roughly 18, I realised that men are utterly selfish, and vowed never to marry. I've never regretted it for one moment. Women are the opposite. I wish I'd been gay so I could have had a relationship with someone selfless.

I don’t think your comment re women being the opposite of men on the selfish scale is accurate at all. I have encountered many, many women who could quite rightly be described as utter selfish arses. Selfish behaviour is not confined to one gender.

I think ‘core’ is a useful word to use. As in, there are men that appear to be ‘good’ men, reasonable men but when you dig under the surface you may find that they hold core beliefs that are misogynistic.

Lovingcountrylife
I totally agree with this, though. Painting women as selfless is also problematic. Why should they feel they have to be? Why do we expect that of women? And women are selfish too. Just as often. It just tends to be more frowned upon (in my experience) because women are meant to put everyone else first.
Balance is what we are after here.

@AuntyPasta

I think ‘core’ is a useful word to use. As in, there are men that appear to be ‘good’ men, reasonable men but when you dig under the surface you may find that they hold core beliefs that are misogynistic.

Good to see you spent less time writing your contribution to this thread than you did searching my posts to incite another kicking and then didn't respond to my feelings on that @AuntyPasta.

@AuntyPasta

I think ‘core’ is a useful word to use. As in, there are men that appear to be ‘good’ men, reasonable men but when you dig under the surface you may find that they hold core beliefs that are misogynistic.

This is true - and I have seen 'good men' have lightbulb moments at times when challenged on things they have just accepted as reality.

Unfortunately, the most frequent response I've had to challenges like that is defensiveness and aggression, but hey-ho. No real surprise there.

@maudspellbody

Lovingcountrylife I seriously doubt that the OP gives a singular flying shit what men would make of her OP or how emotional it is. There is nothing wrong with being emotional or angry. Men may label is 'hysteria', but that is just more misogyny. I don't think it plays into anybody's hands. I think it just expresses righteous anger and a feeling of having reached a limit.

We need to dismantle this idea that women (or men for that matter) being emotional is a bad thing and they way to do that isn't for everyone to calm down and be less emotive.
We need to use strong words. Men aren't afraid to. They are afraid to cry and be vulnerable and that needs to change too. Emotional policing is part of the the bigger picture.

So people can express themselves in any way they like, in my book.

I totally agree with you.

Progress

@maudspellbody

Lovingcountrylife I seriously doubt that the OP gives a singular flying shit what men would make of her OP or how emotional it is. There is nothing wrong with being emotional or angry. Men may label is 'hysteria', but that is just more misogyny. I don't think it plays into anybody's hands. I think it just expresses righteous anger and a feeling of having reached a limit.

We need to dismantle this idea that women (or men for that matter) being emotional is a bad thing and they way to do that isn't for everyone to calm down and be less emotive.
We need to use strong words. Men aren't afraid to. They are afraid to cry and be vulnerable and that needs to change too. Emotional policing is part of the the bigger picture.

So people can express themselves in any way they like, in my book.

Your response is exactly what I mean, unnecessarily aggressive, tightly wound, and consequently, I cannot take you seriously. Expressing yourself without flying off the handle is far more effective in getting your point across. Composed, non emotive language is far, far more persuasive.

You can't read tone very well in words on a screen.
I know my opening sentence was quite strong, but I don't believe that any of the rest was at all aggressive or rightly wound. It wasn't written with that emotion behind it.
I don't think there is anything wrong with what I said or the way I expressed it, actually.
But I do object to women being accused of 'aggression' when they are using strong words or asserting their opinions. There was no aggressive intent whatsoever.

Composed, non emotive language is far, far more persuasive.

Ironically, emotive language is actually a feature of persuasive texts.

I will accept that it was full of typos as usual (small phone, fat thumbs), so I will accept criticism of composition on that level.

Not of the argument I was trying to make though.

Was it really that aggressive? Apart from the first sentence?

I'm beginning to worry that I have a writing style that is misrepresenting my meaning now...

I like pork pie

@maudspellbody

I will accept that it was full of typos as usual (small phone, fat thumbs), so I will accept criticism of composition on that level.

Not of the argument I was trying to make though.

Was it really that aggressive? Apart from the first sentence?

I'm beginning to worry that I have a writing style that is misrepresenting my meaning now...

I'll stick my head above the parapet here..why, I don't know. I must be a masochist

I don't think it was aggressive , actually.

But I think when your opening sentence is that I don't think OP gives a shit , which is what someone further up thread also said to me , the inference is that no one is interested in the view you've just typed. Which immediately gets people's backs up. As with anything in life , people are far more likely to listen to reason.

I started off this thread completely against the OP. Now , my view has shifted but that was as a result of the heartfelt stories from PP and certainly not from the barrage of abuse I received. I don't think anyone in life has ever been swayed by that. But by reason, by personal experience , by balance - absolutely.

YANBU