AIBU to have just about fucking had it with men?

[PurpleFeather]

I’m sure some of you will pile on me to tell me “it’s not all men”, but right now I don’t fucking care.

Woke up to read about more horrific sexual attacks on women along my favourite running route (there have been many lately).

Dealt with some horrific sexism in my work meeting today (a “hilarious” conversation between male members of staff as to why men are just so much smarter than women).

Ended the day by receiving an e-mail from someone I line manage about how she approached inappropriately by a customer today.

So we can’t run safely, we can’t do our jobs and be seen as “equal”, and we can’t serve customers without getting harassed.

Today I am so so so angry. I am done with making excuses for men, and giving them the benefit of the doubt (“He probably brushed past me by accident”, and “he was only joking really”, etc). I am just totally, utterly done with male privilege and male violence rearing it’s fucking ugly head in every area of my life.

Fuck the patriarchy!

[quote AccidentallyOnPurpose]@Wheresmykimchi sorry but that's not enough. Do something proactive, not lecture women and tell them they're wrong to feel the way they do.

Volunteer for men charities, open up a support group, donate to men's charities, fundraise,put you time and blood and sweat in bettering things for them if you feel it's such a worthy cause.

Otherwise you're just paying lip service .[/quote]
I haven't lectured women or told them they're wrong at any point.

Could PP say the opposite to me?

Could pp give a shit?

"Thank the lord , it's taken 38 pages but finally someone agrees and I am not the male slave , misogynistic apologist demon of the thread"
No. You're just not the only one.
Why dont you start a thread about mens mental health if you're so bothered about it?
Someone started a thread yesterday about services for male victims of dv.
Funnily enough no women went over there asking what about women.
Were you there?
Or do you actually care more about chastising women on this thread where women have shared some really awful experiences at the hands of men.
If you want to talk about problems with women start a thread about that.
Or join one of the millions on other forums.
No men there handwringing on our behalf or jumping in to defend us.

@TheHoneyBadger

Could pp give a shit?

Yet if I said that to you, it would be completely unacceptable no?

@MoonPomme

"Thank the lord , it's taken 38 pages but finally someone agrees and I am not the male slave , misogynistic apologist demon of the thread" No. You're just not the only one. Why dont you start a thread about mens mental health if you're so bothered about it? Someone started a thread yesterday about services for male victims of dv. Funnily enough no women went over there asking what about women. Were you there? Or do you actually care more about chastising women on this thread where women have shared some really awful experiences at the hands of men. If you want to talk about problems with women start a thread about that. Or join one of the millions on other forums. No men there handwringing on our behalf or jumping in to defend us.

I haven't chastised any women. I've only made some points about the other side and it not been all men.

The only nasty , chastising , abusive comments have been to me.

I notice you didnt answer my question.
Have you started a thread about mens mental health?
Or one about the not all men? That might be quite nice actually, feel good thread about lovely men.
Doubt it will reach 40 pages but still.
When women share experiences and other people come and say but women do it too and namalt, thats gaslighting and minimising and not a nice thing to do.
It has an impact.
And it doesnt change our minds.

Totally with you OP and all... in my 51 years of experience, even the nice ones are idiots 😞

This thread shouldn't be in YABU

The OP is not interested in a discussion, or other point of views, or anything. This has just be made to gather similar angry opinion and lecture already converted similar minded-people.

It's a just a bit cringey that such excessive - and frankly ridiculous - views can be used by others to put all of us women in the same bag. Being unreasonable is not exclusive to one gender...

@MoonPomme

I notice you didnt answer my question. Have you started a thread about mens mental health? Or one about the not all men? That might be quite nice actually, feel good thread about lovely men. Doubt it will reach 40 pages but still. When women share experiences and other people come and say but women do it too and namalt, thats gaslighting and minimising and not a nice thing to do. It has an impact. And it doesnt change our minds.

But I haven't gaslighted or minimised anyone. I also never said women did it too.

I made about two comments about some of the particularly vile posts and had several attempts to bully me off the thread and PP cheering on some of the most vile comments I've seen on MN

No, I haven't gone over to the other thread. Cause funnily enough after whats happened on here I feel like I haven't got it in me to even contribute.

It has an impact.

@Wheresmykimchi

• I haven't chastised any women. I've only made some points about the other side and it not been all men.

The only nasty , chastising , abusive comments have been to me.*

I haven't called you any names or been abusive. Funnily enough I haven't even called men any names.

You say you haven't done x and y, but that's exactly how you come across. You've put women who might have been traumatised,used,abused on the defensive, having to justify why they feel the way they do. Maybe have a think about why that is, the language and arguments you use.

If you support men fair enough. Really, nothing wrong with with that. Even better,do something about it. Something concrete,tangible. Start another thread about toxic masculinity,male suicides,male mental health. Signpost people to charities or what help is available . I might even support you, so might other posters . There's a time and place . That place is never on a thread where victims (of whatever type) talk about their oppressors .

NB my Dad, my Brothers, my ex partner's, my male friends, my ex husband, my brother in law, my fiance. All idiots, some much worse than idiots, most loved very much.. but idiots to a last man. Sad, funny and true.

[quote AccidentallyOnPurpose]@Wheresmykimchi

• I haven't chastised any women. I've only made some points about the other side and it not been all men.

The only nasty , chastising , abusive comments have been to me.*

I haven't called you any names or been abusive. Funnily enough I haven't even called men any names.

You say you haven't done x and y, but that's exactly how you come across. You've put women who might have been traumatised,used,abused on the defensive, having to justify why they feel the way they do. Maybe have a think about why that is, the language and arguments you use.

If you support men fair enough. Really, nothing wrong with with that. Even better,do something about it. Something concrete,tangible. Start another thread about toxic masculinity,male suicides,male mental health. Signpost people to charities or what help is available . I might even support you, so might other posters . There's a time and place . That place is never on a thread where victims (of whatever type) talk about their oppressors .[/quote]
You haven't, and we reached peace earlier on the thread , but others have .

I've never asked anyone to justify anything. I never responded directly to the stories other than with awe and respect. I responded only to the ones who made sweeping statements that wouldn't be acceptable the other way round and I stand by that.

Incidentally I have been a victim of domestic violence. But yet my voice is shouted down because it doesn't tie in with the ones on this thread.

I'm out. I really am.

I don't understand how any woman living in the society in which we live with the porn culture and macho expectations of men and inequality and discrimination that exists and is clear for all to see, can come onto a thread like this talking about 'generalisation' and NAMALT in all seriousness.

I do completely understand the problems men have with being emotionally suppressed and having bad mental health problems. Men are more likely to be assaulted than women, they are more likely to be imprisoned, but that is not a different point of view. It is the SAME point of view.
The treatment of women in society is a symptom of problems with the male half of society. So are the men's problems. It's the same attitudes that breed both sets of issues. The problem is still the behaviour of men (as a class) - however you want to spin it.

It is not unfair generalisation. It is fact. Patriarchy leads to societies that expect men to be men and women to shut up and sit down and it does damage to EVERYONE.

Feminists have been working for centuries to fight against and improve this, but it is men's turn now. We can't do it all. We can't change attitudes when men are supporting each other to think to this behaviour is ok and not worthy of challenge.

Even nice guys don't often stand up and say 'no. This is wrong'

I can't wrap my head around thinking that there's no problem here...

If you admit there is a problem, you also have to admit that the problem is with men, unfortunately.

Which also isn't saying women are perfect (that was a strange conclusion someone jumped to earlier in the thread). Women are flawed and human too, but we aren't the source of male violence and misogyny - which is the problem we are discussing.

Relatively speaking my dad seems a good man. He cooks, he does his share of housework now they're retired etc but never discuss those poor celebrities having their reputations ruined by women accusing them of historical abuse.

It's so hard to love men once you've had those kind of conversations with them. It's hard to love and have sex with men once you see how they actually feel sex and access to your body is an entitlement.

I would never stay with a man past the first time they have a huff or passive aggressively stomp and sulk about the place because you've had a tough week and haven't felt like sex for a few days. I can't ignore what that tells me and my god the exhaustion of having to deal with a petulant child over not 'getting' (yuk) sex when they're supposed to be a grown arse adult.

Sex is ruined once you see this. I'm not attracted to entitled man child's who whether they admit it or not think they're entitled to women's bodies in return for being a relatively decent human being with the bar for that set incredibly low.

I stayed with the last one after I'd seen enough to know better and sex became hugely contentious because I couldn't unsee the ugliness, the entitlement and the refusal/inability to self regulate your emotions and needs rather than project all of it onto someone else as their responsibility.

Everyone says women have low sex drives but someone making you be simultaneously their mother and yet expecting you to shag them would kill plenty of sex drives in their tracks. And having sex for a quiet life or to avoid or a fight will bury it for life.

No I'm not talking about all men. I'm talking about me and my experiences and those I see all around me that have led me to feel a man will always demand and take too much whilst expecting accolades and blow jobs for the most basic levels of decentish human behaviour.

@maudspellbody

I don't understand how any woman living in the society in which we live with the porn culture and macho expectations of men and inequality and discrimination that exists and is clear for all to see, can come onto a thread like this talking about 'generalisation' and NAMALT in all seriousness.

I do completely understand the problems men have with being emotionally suppressed and having bad mental health problems. Men are more likely to be assaulted than women, they are more likely to be imprisoned, but that is not a different point of view. It is the SAME point of view.
The treatment of women in society is a symptom of problems with the male half of society. So are the men's problems. It's the same attitudes that breed both sets of issues. The problem is still the behaviour of men (as a class) - however you want to spin it.

It is not unfair generalisation. It is fact. Patriarchy leads to societies that expect men to be men and women to shut up and sit down and it does damage to EVERYONE.

Feminists have been working for centuries to fight against and improve this, but it is men's turn now. We can't do it all. We can't change attitudes when men are supporting each other to think to this behaviour is ok and not worthy of challenge.

Even nice guys don't often stand up and say 'no. This is wrong'

I can't wrap my head around thinking that there's no problem here...

If you admit there is a problem, you also have to admit that the problem is with men, unfortunately.

Which also isn't saying women are perfect (that was a strange conclusion someone jumped to earlier in the thread). Women are flawed and human too, but we aren't the source of male violence and misogyny - which is the problem we are discussing.

This post , I can get on board with (apart from the 'bad mental health problems - 85 plus men a week commit suicide.

Posts like this make me start to see the point as it clearly is something I need to open my eyes to .

It's the abuse I can't go.

Thank you for this post @maudspellbody

@hellymissy

Also to some of the posters saying raise good sons I agree, but also think there is a very problematic way in which we raise girls too.

The way society views and treats BOTH genders is concerning and only encourages us from a young age to fit into certain places and roles within society. So I actually think your wanting about raising in certain ways is a note to all parents not just those with boys.

Parents also need to lead by example which often does not happen.

Every word of this is true. Feminists in the 70s made great strides with this - educating girls and giving them aspirations, opening up workplaces, changing attitudes... Yet we are still here and we seem to be going backwards. Blue and pink aisles in toy shops weren't a thing when I can a child in the late 70s. Children's clothes were a lot less gendered.

Porn culture has fucked us.

@TheHoneyBadger

Relatively speaking my dad seems a good man. He cooks, he does his share of housework now they're retired etc but never discuss those poor celebrities having their reputations ruined by women accusing them of historical abuse.

It's so hard to love men once you've had those kind of conversations with them. It's hard to love and have sex with men once you see how they actually feel sex and access to your body is an entitlement.

I would never stay with a man past the first time they have a huff or passive aggressively stomp and sulk about the place because you've had a tough week and haven't felt like sex for a few days. I can't ignore what that tells me and my god the exhaustion of having to deal with a petulant child over not 'getting' (yuk) sex when they're supposed to be a grown arse adult.

Sex is ruined once you see this. I'm not attracted to entitled man child's who whether they admit it or not think they're entitled to women's bodies in return for being a relatively decent human being with the bar for that set incredibly low.

I stayed with the last one after I'd seen enough to know better and sex became hugely contentious because I couldn't unsee the ugliness, the entitlement and the refusal/inability to self regulate your emotions and needs rather than project all of it onto someone else as their responsibility.

Everyone says women have low sex drives but someone making you be simultaneously their mother and yet expecting you to shag them would kill plenty of sex drives in their tracks. And having sex for a quiet life or to avoid or a fight will bury it for life.

No I'm not talking about all men. I'm talking about me and my experiences and those I see all around me that have led me to feel a man will always demand and take too much whilst expecting accolades and blow jobs for the most basic levels of decentish human behaviour.

Again , I've understand far more from this post than any previous @TheHoneyBadger.

For what it's worth even though we have clashed on this thread I am sorry that you have been through this.

EVERYONE has been through that. Why are we pretending it's some rare anomalous behaviour? Heterosexual relationships always deal with this

I don't know a single heterosexual woman, especially mothers but not only, who hasn't had to deal with some form of punishment for not feeling like sex.

@TheHoneyBadger

EVERYONE has been through that. Why are we pretending it's some rare anomalous behaviour? Heterosexual relationships always deal with this

In my defence I can't win here .

Earlier in the thread I was accused of gaslighting and minimising and now when I say I'm sorry you've been through that (as our previous posts have been nothing but clashes) that's not right either.

It's not about you.

@TheHoneyBadger

It's not about you.

You really are a piece of work.

Going by your posts on this thread , it's all about you.

I think anyone looking in from the outside in the last few pages can see who the awkward , gaslighting, nasty person is and it's certainly not me.

Nor have I accused you of any of that I'm just not centring you and your opinions. That doesn't make me evil, just disinterested

The sex issue is something that scares the shit out of me.
When I started having sex it was with boys who knew little more than I did and there weren't such ready-made expectations of what it was meant to be like.

There were massively problematic differences then too, of course. Young men were expected to have a clue what they were doing and were supposed to be experienced. Girls were supposed to 'allow' boys to have sex with them and shouldn't admit to enjoying it too much because that would make them slags...

But the situation is so much worse now. Surveys of teenage and young women (sorry - don't have links, but I could dig around when I have some time later) are showing that young men very much have expectations now. And what they expect is anal and pornstar performances from their girlfriends.

It has only been since I've been dating in my 40s that men have tried to actually hurt me, demean me and choke me during sex. I'm old enough and experienced enough to say 'that's not right. That's not what I want or like and get the fuck off me.' Girls expect this treatment too these days. What the hell has gone wrong there?!

And yes - women are still expected to 'put out' in relationships whenever required and some (not all) men feel entitled enough to silk when they don't get it. There is plenty of anecdata on the relationship board to support that.

It's all gone backwards and wrong.

And I don't think it's women driving this change.

I think some are guilty of going along with it and capitalising on it, but I don't think any of this is good for women - and it originates in a male created porn and sexual industry.

@TheHoneyBadger

Nor have I accused you of any of that I'm just not centring you and your opinions. That doesn't make me evil, just disinterested

But you have.

You responded to each of my posts negatively but when I genuinely extended some form of understanding to a post of yours , were rude and dismissive.
So you will only 'centre ' me , where you can be negative.