AIBU to have just about fucking had it with men?

[PurpleFeather]

I’m sure some of you will pile on me to tell me “it’s not all men”, but right now I don’t fucking care.

Woke up to read about more horrific sexual attacks on women along my favourite running route (there have been many lately).

Dealt with some horrific sexism in my work meeting today (a “hilarious” conversation between male members of staff as to why men are just so much smarter than women).

Ended the day by receiving an e-mail from someone I line manage about how she approached inappropriately by a customer today.

So we can’t run safely, we can’t do our jobs and be seen as “equal”, and we can’t serve customers without getting harassed.

Today I am so so so angry. I am done with making excuses for men, and giving them the benefit of the doubt (“He probably brushed past me by accident”, and “he was only joking really”, etc). I am just totally, utterly done with male privilege and male violence rearing it’s fucking ugly head in every area of my life.

Fuck the patriarchy!

I have worked and lived North South of the border, abroad in many developed and less developed countries, in government, university, private business, catering , farms and overseas aid and never come across regular male problems so severe as described. This makes me wonder if there are specific areas locations social settings where these issues are present and self generating, and this might be the specific problem area to be tackled.

@IloveTed

As much as I agree with much of what the original poster has said, I have to say that as a mother of 2 boys (and 2 girls) that I am also very concerned about how males generally are being viewed by women. Just as we should never band any group by one distinguishing feature e.g. colour or religion we should also not band them by gender.

I think women aren't viewing ALL men as anything. Many of us have boys too. And husbands and fathers who we love dearly.

It had been said a million times on here NAMALT. They aren't.

But too many are - and that is because of the culture. The very same culture that women and girls struggle with, men and boys struggle with too. That's why we have feminism.
It is because we want better for everyone. It's not about putting men down. It's about saying 'there is a problem here. A really bad one - we as a human race need to fix it' and men have as big a part to play in being the solution. Women can't change this on our own.

Men are the solution. Men calling out other men on their behaviour and educating them.

I remember the ONLY year I went to London for the new years fireworks. I ended my year with some random 40ish year old man sticking his hand up my dress and grabbing me (full crotch grab) while his friends laughed. I was surrounded by people and noone said a thing. That was really shit.

@YellowPostItPad

Don't tar all men with the same brush. It's unfair. I don't consider all women to be nasty.

There are overwhelming statistics that suggest men are more violent than women. I guarantee that you can not find one country in the world where there are more female prisoners than male prisoners. Talk to a police officer and ask them how much male violence they encounter? How many domestic violence incidents they are called to perpetrated by men? How many paedophiles they encounter that are male? Etc etc etc.

I won't tar men with the same brush. As I and many have said, we have great partners, siblings, friends, fathers etc. But many people aren't so lucky.

You are not being unreasonable. Reading this thread and thinking about all the things I and many friends have been subjected to over the years I seriously wonder about the point of men.... Why can't they just stop abusing, raping and killing us FFS? Is it too much to ask? Of course not all men are like this. But there are far too many who are a risk to women. Way too many. My only hope is for future generations of men to be different.

I think there are 10% of men who act like hormonal teenagers with single digit IQs who ruin everything for everyone. The same ones who cheat on their partners, or think its ok to grope someone.

The vast majority of men are decent and kind, but unfortunately theres no way to tell them apart for sure. (Well, you can spot the dickheads)

I don't think women have just decided to say they dislike men. It has built up after a lifetime of being the recipient of bad behaviour ranging from the minor like talking over women to rape and domestic violence. I am sure I am not alone in saying that I wish it wasn't like that. Of course we would prefer to see men as we see other women - some we like, some we don't. But the reality is we are let down, we are frightened, we are tired. We are all human, but men treat us as objects, things to patronise, take advantage of, use, discard, beat, rape. Male behaviour impacts us and hinders us on so many levels.

Men are also victims of toxic macho behaviour themselves, and are the recipients of violence from other males. I am lucky - I was brought up in fear because my dad was violent and psychologically abusive, not only to me, but he beat my mum when she was dying from cancer, my poor mum. I have had some unpleasant incidents in the streets including an attempted abduction when I was still at school. I have been denied work because of the old boy's network. Endless. But I still think I am lucky when you read some of the suffering on here.

Totally agree also! (I do appreciate there are a few gems though). On line dating in my 40s has shown me some total horrors 99% so far have been terrible, just terrible. I mentioned mumsnet tonight To a guy I was chatting to (from on line dating). I said how much it had helped me with lots of things legal issues, specials needs stuff etc he says " I wouldn't listen to that mumsnet shit". Yawn! Needless to say blocked thank you next!

Things are so bad right now that major credit cards are withdrawing from payments to PornHub. Violence towards women and girls is now mainstream porn. Its no longer niche.

@howsicklyarsekissy

Totally agree also! (I do appreciate there are a few gems though). On line dating in my 40s has shown me some total horrors 99% so far have been terrible, just terrible. I mentioned mumsnet tonight To a guy I was chatting to (from on line dating). I said how much it had helped me with lots of things legal issues, specials needs stuff etc he says " I wouldn't listen to that mumsnet shit". Yawn! Needless to say blocked thank you next!

Yup. I used to find putting 'feminist' in my profile brought out the worst in mankind. Which is almost why I did it. Really helped to weed out the worst.

Not, unfortunately, the ones who try to use it to claim right-on ally status only to be utter let downs in real life with no clue about the actual issues - who then get offended and start NAMALT-ing at me.

@sheridanstar

I think there are 10% of men who act like hormonal teenagers with single digit IQs who ruin everything for everyone. The same ones who cheat on their partners, or think its ok to grope someone.

The vast majority of men are decent and kind, but unfortunately theres no way to tell them apart for sure. (Well, you can spot the dickheads)

The big issue is that that majority of men that are decent and kind , don't speak out against the 10% or worse, they engage in behaviours that "encourage " the 10%.

Watching porn, rape and sexist jokes,exchanges of sexist and sexualised pics, engaging in banter, the "good boys finish last" attitude, "women only want bad boys", ribbing eachother or whinging about being "friendzoned", excusing rape "she asked for it,she was dressed like that, she's his wife , etc" , turning a blind eye when a woman is harassed,overlooked at work , being made uncomfortable or feel threatened, "town bike" / "stud"comments , laughing at the "whipped" ones and many many other things. It all adds up, and it makes for a culture where men as a class are not actually decent,much less kind.. to eachother and even less to women.

I don't think women have just decided to say they dislike men. It has built up after a lifetime of being the recipient of bad behaviour ranging from the minor like talking over women to rape and domestic violence.

This. And also many women in the west at least now have, relative to most of history, more agency and financial security than ever before. And this is giving them the confidence to challenge something which for millennia they felt they had simply to suck up and the voice to express their anger about it. This in itself is a good thing, obviously, although progress is slow and uneven. But boy has it provoked a backlash -- from many women as well as men.

I think if we want to get past the tedious NAMALT discussions that pepper all of these threads it might be helpful to get people to start thinking about patriarchy as an institutional problem, in a similar way that people have with institutional racism.

Obviously its not all men and most people can point to a couple of really kind, reliable and steadfast men in their lives. But its not a pissing competition to point out that your Nigel would never do that. It's about getting both men and women to acknowledge that there is a massive structural problem in our society which allows men to get away with violent crimes and rapes and means that building a career and financial security is still so much easier for them.

Race is not an exact analogy for this for too many reasons to list and I won't patronise black people by telling them I understand how they feel just because I'm a woman. But as we are starting to have more honest discussions about how race impacts people's life outcomes we should be having this sort of conversation about how toxic masculinity as a construct damages the whole of society.

I had just finished second dose of chemotherapy, feeling rather fragile my ex husband's old friend tried to worm his way in, telling me he had always fancied me WTF!

Not all men are cads but unfortunately we remember the bad ones as when it's bad it's scary

I really don't think you can say it's anywhere near as low as 'only 10% of men' when there are still a huge number of countries with legislation that actively belittles and degrades women.

See, I'd be tempted to agree and say, oh yes, it's only 10% of men, my DH, dad, brother etc etc is a good person. He'd never do anything like we've seen discussed here.

But they do and have! Porn use is at an all time high, all these disgusting leery comments - they are SOMEONE'S dad, DH, brother, son etc etc.

For example, I'd say FIL is a good person. But does he mansplain! And he doesn't do it to men. Women. How to fry an egg, etc.

That's where it starts.

DS (6) tried mansplaining driving to me the other day. He's 6!

I'd just left my husband and started working part time in a bar, as my full time job didnt pay enough. The bar got a lot of CID in after their shift. It was bloody awful I couldn't come from behind the bar for fear of being mobbed. Beer ran out, I ran for the cellar, grabbed the door and some cheeky tw** stuck his hand between my legs. Cleveland police are so accomplished.

@Ddot

I had just finished second dose of chemotherapy, feeling rather fragile my ex husband's old friend tried to worm his way in, telling me he had always fancied me WTF!

Yes. This is disgusting and also typical.

My ExH (Mr Wonderful Stay at Home Dad) was genuinely one of the good ones, I believed. We split up for various reasons, but not because he was a shit. He is a good father and a decent man - except that he asked me for second when his second wife was pregnant.

And that's when I thought 'screw it all - maybe there are no good ones after all '
Faith shattered.

*asked me for sex.

Even autocorrect was too horrified to accept that one, clearly.

And for anyone who is STILL trying to claim women are abusive too so we can't possibly bang on about men, NAMALT, it's only a minority etc etc have a really good look at this website:
www.equalitynow.org/stories_of_survivors
Such a website, with so many horrific stories and details of absolutely backwards legislation in countries we trade with and holiday in and have friends from, would NEVER have as much content if it were the other way around.

Its way more than 10% unfortunately.
6% in a college study on a campus in America admitted to be rapists.
Anyone with links to the study im talking about, much appreciated.
As in they admitted they would have sex with a woman without enthusiastic consent if the opportunity presented itself/they would get away with it.
Which will all know 99% would get away with it.
They're just the rapists.
Not the brutally attack someone in an alley rapists. The garden variety. The friend, the ex, the one night stand.
Plausable deniability.
And they know there will be people who's first instinct is to excuse them and blame the woman.
If anyone finds out.
Thats male privilege.
We're not just talking about rape.
Its all the other insidious shit that curtails our lives and our work.
The wifework.
The man at work who talks over and takes credit.
The gropes
The 'smile love it might never happen'
The bringing kids up mostly alone but hes a hero because he has the kids most weekends even though he never pays a penny
The doing all the elderly parent care because brother is just too busy
The whistles/shouts out of vans
I could go on.

@ImAllOut

And for anyone who is STILL trying to claim women are abusive too so we can't possibly bang on about men, NAMALT, it's only a minority etc etc have a really good look at this website: www.equalitynow.org/stories_of_survivors Such a website, with so many horrific stories and details of absolutely backwards legislation in countries we trade with and holiday in and have friends from, would NEVER have as much content if it were the other way around.

This is what interests me about trudi33's post. She claims to have been all over the place and never experienced the things on this thread.

Most haven't (I hope) been on the receiving end of all of the horrible behaviour described, but I've rarely met a woman who would claim it hardly/never happens to them.

So how is her experience so different?

Well judging from the jobs and experiences she describes shes probably privileged and or highly educated.
Maybe she has her own parking space at work so she doesnt have to walk to a mutli storey at 1am from a shit job that pays peanuts.
Or never uses public transport.
Maybe doesn't even have to do the school run or other wifework.
Maybe lucky enough to be married to one of these mystical creatures, the not all man, that pulls his weight, pays his way and gives great sex without sulking when shes not in the mood.
Lucky her anyway.
Im sure lots of us wish our daughters/sisters could grow up with the same experiences.
Unfortunately my 16yo sister is already having to deal with crap from men.