To want to teach proper table manners to children?

[Insertfunnyname]

Having an argument with DH because he is refusing to accept that there is an etiquette to serving ketchup. His table manners are terrible as he was never taught them. He can’t use cutlery correctly and it’s a bit of an ongoing battle because I try to teach table manners to our sons and he undermines me and says it doesn’t matter how they use cutlery or what hand they hold the knife in etc etc as anyone who judges a lack of table manners lives in the last century.

We have 3 primary aged children and on the rare occasion they use ketchup they pour it all over their food. I said that it should be poured on the side of the plate and food dipped in it (ideally, if you’re in company or restaurant setting)

Leaving aside the issue that ketchup isn’t that high brow a food in the first place (!) it’s really important to me that they are taught table manners because rightly or wrongly society DOES judge poor manners.

He thinks I’ve invented this form of table manners that ketchup shouldn’t be squirted liberally over food and should in fact be poured in one spot at the side. Of course the main issue is he doesn’t place any value on table manners in general so this is really the straw that broke the camel’s back rather than the main issue.

YANBU - there is an etiquette with using ketchup that children should learn/know about

YABU - everyone should use ketchup how they like even when dining with the queen.

Oh course children should be taught to use cutlet probably. Not being able to do so will hold them back in later life and people do judge. My husband puts ketchup over his dinner sometime and therefore my son copied his Dad , I have learn to turned a blind eye ,just !

So I think (for me) the following matter more than which hand you hold knife and fork in:

• not talking with your mouth full
• not using hands to eat (obviously not for pizza/chips/burgers other finger food )
• not messing about with food
• saying thank you to the person who made the meal
• asking to leave the table (for children)

I think if they are using cutlery full stop that is a good thing so wouldn't worry too much if it's in the wrong hand and I would never judge anyone for using the opposite way to me.

The ketchup thing I do understand but I actually despise ketchup and the sight of it all over food makes me heave 😂 so maybe I don't have the most balanced perspective.

I guess the main issue you have is husband undermining you in front of your kids. It doesn't really matter what the topic is, you need to support each other and for your kids to see you as a team. Maybe speak together privately about the things that are most important to you manners-wise and ask him to back you up.

@bookworm14

That's not true at all, of course Mumsnet isn't the only place where people value good table manners, not sure why you'd think that

BUT WHY IS IT BAD TABLE MANNERS TO HOLD YOUR KNIFE IN YOUR LEFT HAND?

I have a physical difference - left handedness - which means I can only eat this way. Why is it wrong? I don’t make a mess, or speak with my mouth full, or drop food, or anything else - so why is it a problem?

Well, the obvious solution is to have a panel of mumsnetters independently verify that you are, in actual face, left-handed. What if you’re being deceitful in order to get away with bad manners?

In fact, it should be a condition of every dinner party that a handwriting test be administered to all guests before they are seated. The result will then be displayed on a place card in front of them. That’ll show up the ill mannered people!

On a serious note, I’m Muslim and we were traditionally raised to eat with our right hand at all times. I couldn’t give a flying fuck what people think about that and I’m not swapping my cutlery around awkwardly in order to avoid any pitying looks. I don’t talk with my mouth full or otherwise behave in an egregious way around others.

Convention.Which is enough for me for it to be wrong. Which I am perfectly happy to own maybe old-fashioned, illogical, immaterial, snobbish and anything else!
Choosing to use your cutlery right handed because it is convention wouldn't be snobbish at all.

Deciding that because an old convention has an issue with left handed eating that other people are wrong and then judging them/ feeling superior is absolutely unpleasant snobbery.

Once upon a time children had their hand tied behind their back because convention deemed left handed writing a big no no. Thankfully we've moved on since then, well most people have.

Convention.Which is enough for me for it to be wrong.

Dogmatic adherence to convention is probably the most infuriating trait some humans have. If we all suffered from it, we wouldn't have made any progress at all over the centuries. I mean:

'Let's abolish slavery' - 'No, it's convention. We've always done it that way. It can't be changed.'

'Hey, Dr so and so has developed a new treatment for X and it really works' - 'No, we've always just used the leeches. Bring the leeches'.

I mean, we're better than that! Adherence to convention is the mother of stagnation.

My MIL used to go nuts if my DDs asked for mint sauce with a roast dinner, if it wasn't lamb …. who cares! I have mustard and horseradish with everything.

pointythings
You're right.
'What do you mean you want to keep your name on marriage? Everyone knows that the right thing is to take your husband's name'.

Or one from a recent thread where a MIL insists on addressing a woman as Mr and Mrs Richard Smith because on marriage a woman obviously becomes Mrs HusbandsFirstName HusbandsLastName. Convention innit.

Deciding that because an old convention has an issue with left handed eating that other people are wrong and then judging them/ feeling superior is absolutely unpleasant snobbery.
As I say my bigger issue is it being considered the left-handed way. It is how some left-handed and some (albeit probably fewer) right-handers choose to eat. It doesn't make it "the left-handed way" and I resent my left-handedness being invoked in this way.

'What do you mean you want to keep your name on marriage? Everyone knows that the right thing is to take your husband's name'.
I know, plenty of conventions I couldn't care less about. I did say I was happy to own the lack of logic!

@BigSandyBalls2015

My MIL used to go nuts if my DDs asked for mint sauce with a roast dinner, if it wasn't lamb …. who cares! I have mustard and horseradish with everything.

There was a thread here a while ago where the OP made it clear that ‘ketchup or mayonnaise, not both’ was acceptable with fish and chips. With her own family. Some of it verges on policing/controlling food behaviour.

I have known and seen senior execs with very poor table manner (probably the ‘DH’s of quite a few MumsNetters). I assume they are completely oblivious to what other people think or feel: a trait that almost certainly contributed to their career advancement in the first place.

Fully agree with OP. I can't ever look at the people who use their cutlery in an incorrect manner the same way as I did prior to witnessing the travesty
Don't get me started on elbows on the table, talking with their mouth full, and not using napkins.
I am a table-manners' nazi.

( Gives self a . )

I can't help it.

Using cutlery properly - particularly not holding your knife like a pencil - is important. People do judge and I’d hazard a guess that those who say they don’t notice, do.

LolaSmiles I have a friend whose DH took her name after marriage. Lots of ways of doing it now, it's great. I took my late DH's name because mine is foreign - difficult for an Anglophone to pronounce, harder still to spell. DD2 is going to deed poll her surname to take on my maiden name because my late H was an abusive alcoholic - she's happy to spend her life correcting people and checking documents. I'm happy she has that choice.

Which I am perfectly happy to own maybe old-fashioned, illogical, immaterial, snobbish and anything else
Fine applying to yourself if you wish to remain stick to convention but don't make it wrong for others. It's not 'wrong', it's only wrong for yourself if you wish it to be.

I'm with you op. I've always taught my children table etiquette. I've taken them out to restaurants from a young age so they've grown up with it. I used to go out with someone whose children had terrible table manners (fighting each other over sauces at the table, burping in someone's face and laughing about it. The one even drank gravy directly from the gravy jug). He never, ever told them off about it and so they continued to behave that way. I just think that good table manners will set you up for life. I'm not talking Downton Abbey style, but near, polite and inoffensive!

#neat, polite and inoffensive.

YANBU
Ketchup aside, you make a good point re table manners generally. There is nothing worse than eating out with someone who doesn’t close their mouth when eating (🤮), can’t hold a knife and fork properly, shovels / scoops their food into their mouth off the cutlery.... I could go on.
Good table manners are important, so I’m with you entirely.
On the ketchup point, I think at home you can do as you please. When out it’s likely it’ll get brought in a separate dish.

People do judge
The one lesson I taught my kids which in my view is 100 times more valuable than teaching them table manners was not to give a hoot about people who judge them over old fashion conventions and beliefs when their actions or words do no harm to them or others.

Dogmatic adherence to convention is probably the most infuriating trait some humans have

I agree with this when it's aimed at pointless things like use of napkins, fish knives, where you put the water glass and splodge your ketchup. As someone pointed out below we eat all sorts of different foods that come with different customs nowadays.

However, I still think basic manners that are the convention because they are considerate of others ie not chewing with your mouth open, reaching across in front of someone else, taking all the food without offering it around to others first, are still very much valid today .

And no host with genuine good manners would care if a left-handed person ate with their left hand, or ate mint sauce with beef, in fact it would be extremely bad manners for them to make a fuss about it. Agree it would be unkind and snobbish. And rude!

Agree with you, OP.

fighting each other over sauces at the table, burping in someone's face and laughing about it. The one even drank gravy directly from the gravy jug
That's totally different. This is not about convention or etiquette, this is about behaviours that disturb others. This is not acceptable.

Totally different to how one uses their fork and knife or even use ketchup.

I have known and seen senior execs with very poor table manner (probably the ‘DH’s of quite a few MumsNetters). I assume they are completely oblivious to what other people think or feel: a trait that almost certainly contributed to their career advancement in the first place.

You are probably right - I'll bet Boris has appalling table manners, takes a certain amount of self confidence to not give a shit.
However I find most people, including children instinctively adjust their behaviour according to the setting. It doesn't matter if most of the meals at home are eaten with bare hands, once in the situation as long as they've been shown at some point they'll go with the crowd and mirror everyone else and when brought a tiny ramekin of sauce there will be no slathering to be done. No need to enforce it every meal time.

Those "manners" were invented in a society where women and left handed people were often beaten and murdered for "evil" or "the devil". Are you teaching your son's that part too?

I’m so pleased I was taught table manners at such a young age that they’re unconscious and natural now. I’ve been to a lot of very formal dinners and felt so sorry for the odd person looking at their cutlery in total bewilderment. I once saw someone try to eat cheese and biscuits with a knife and fork - that went well.

My son has A and C manners - you can take him anywhere. It’s a different story at home with nobody outside the family there.

@dontdisturbmenow

Which I am perfectly happy to own maybe old-fashioned, illogical, immaterial, snobbish and anything else Fine applying to yourself if you wish to remain stick to convention but don't make it wrong for others. It's not 'wrong', it's only wrong for yourself if you wish it to be.

Convention is called convention for a reason. There is a right way and not using it makes you wrong.