To want to teach proper table manners to children?

[Insertfunnyname]

Having an argument with DH because he is refusing to accept that there is an etiquette to serving ketchup. His table manners are terrible as he was never taught them. He can’t use cutlery correctly and it’s a bit of an ongoing battle because I try to teach table manners to our sons and he undermines me and says it doesn’t matter how they use cutlery or what hand they hold the knife in etc etc as anyone who judges a lack of table manners lives in the last century.

We have 3 primary aged children and on the rare occasion they use ketchup they pour it all over their food. I said that it should be poured on the side of the plate and food dipped in it (ideally, if you’re in company or restaurant setting)

Leaving aside the issue that ketchup isn’t that high brow a food in the first place (!) it’s really important to me that they are taught table manners because rightly or wrongly society DOES judge poor manners.

He thinks I’ve invented this form of table manners that ketchup shouldn’t be squirted liberally over food and should in fact be poured in one spot at the side. Of course the main issue is he doesn’t place any value on table manners in general so this is really the straw that broke the camel’s back rather than the main issue.

YANBU - there is an etiquette with using ketchup that children should learn/know about

YABU - everyone should use ketchup how they like even when dining with the queen.

@HallieKnight

Those "manners" were invented in a society where women and left handed people were often beaten and murdered for "evil" or "the devil". Are you teaching your son's that part too?

Oh for heaven’s sake, what a ridiculous thing to say.

Table manners are important in a lot of settings.

At a place i used to work, part of the interview process was conducted over dinner in a restaurant (we did a lot of client visits and socialising) and people with poor manners were rejected as being incompatible with our corporate identity. (I wasn't part of the hiring team, but i was often invited on these dinners.)

I judge (silently) too if i see people waving cutlery around, talking with their mouths full, reaching over people, burping, etc etc. It is quite offputting. Using cutlery without scraping it all over the places and not waving it around is the minimum. I wouldn't care which hand they held their knife in - unless they hold it like a pen. Then the judgy pants get hoiked up.

I'm with you- pouring ketchup all over your food is the height of rudeness to whoever cooked it. It's also pretty unhealthy to eat ketchup in such large quantities.

Generally table manners are about courtesy- treating the meal that's been cooked for you and your fellow diners with respect.

I’ve been to a lot of very formal dinners and felt so sorry for the odd person looking at their cutlery in total bewilderment.

They'd clearly never seen pretty woman - anyone that had would know!

I once saw someone try to eat cheese and biscuits with a knife and fork - that went well.

Maybe they had an etiquette obsessed mum or granny who insisted eating with your hands was rude. My dad comes from quite a formal family and he eats burgers and pizza with his knife and fork. It's obviously drilled in to him and at 70
He still can't go against it.

@VinylDetective

I’m so pleased I was taught table manners at such a young age that they’re unconscious and natural now. I’ve been to a lot of very formal dinners and felt so sorry for the odd person looking at their cutlery in total bewilderment. I once saw someone try to eat cheese and biscuits with a knife and fork - that went well.

My son has A and C manners - you can take him anywhere. It’s a different story at home with nobody outside the family there.

At home, the same standards should apply. You should be teaching a child that maintaining high standards is, in the first place, about self respect.

I know, plenty of conventions I couldn't care less about. I did say I was happy to own the lack of logic!
I wouldn't say it's lack of logic in you choosing to use cutlery the way you so. People fall into different things and that's fine to me.

The only lack of logic is if someone cherry picks the conventions they follow and then decides they're in a position to be judgey to others, that others are wrong etc.

It's like I said upthread, I highly doubt most of the people on this thread who are utterly appalled at certain older conventions not being followed and place a bizarre value on how someone eats a bread roll won't be setting their tables for breakfast properly, nor will they be making sure that only a jam spoons is used for jam (teaspoon for jam isn't 'correct' etiquette). They choose to follow some conventions, deliberately try to confuse conventions with manners and then are evidently showing themselves to be rather unpleasantly judgemental of others who don't follow their mini list of rights and wrongs.

It's not ridiculous, it's true and extremely oppressive

I'm with you- pouring ketchup all over your food is the height of rudeness to whoever cooked it. It's also pretty unhealthy to eat ketchup in such large quantities.

It's not rude to have different taste preferences- especially when said food is birds eye nuggets and chips. Low/no sugar and salt ketchups are now available!

At home, the same standards should apply. You should be teaching a child that maintaining high standards is, in the first place, about self respect.

He’s 45 now so that ship’s sailed! I’m cool with it, he’s got enough self respect for me.

I have had this ongoing argument with my DH for a decade.

The only way I ever win is by repeating ad nauseam that I don’t care for etiquette or manners for the sake of them, but because the rules that I care about are to show courtesy and consideration for others. As such, I don’t care which hand holds the knife, but I do care about talking with your mouth full or waving your cutlery about or not lining them vertically on your plate when you’ve finished eating. I don’t teach my DS to hold the door open for my DD, but I do teach them both to hold the door open for the elderly/ people with hands full/ me . I’ve taught them that at home and at GP’s houses they take their dirty dishes to the sink as there are no waiters or waitresses there to serve them, everywhere else they follow my lead. They don’t start until everyone is served, and don’t get up until everyone has finished. No getting up to go to the loo in the middle of a meal. Pleases and thank you’s.

I have taught them how to use multi-course table settings, but only because it’s a useful thing to know - like knowing how to ride a bike or use a dictionary. It makes life easier and less embarrassing if they don’t have to ask or wonder.

The ketchup thing: I don’t know anyone who would squirt it anywhere other than at the edge of the plate (and the ramekin thing is wasteful - so, out of consideration for the farmers and producers and the environment, I wouldn’t advocate it). I think I’d tell my DC not to squirt it all over their food, for the same reason I’ve taught them not to add salt to their food until they’ve tasted it and found it wanting. It would also look unpleasant and those squirty bottles are grim. It’s fine - whatever. If the children are little, it’s fine. I’d be if my 14/15yo+ DC we’re doing it.

We all love “dirty” good like burgers and pizzas and tacos. We eat with our hands (obviously), but tidily and neatly. We eat Chinese/ Japanese/ Vietnamese/ Korean food with chopsticks.

It’s just basic respect for the people around you, and for those who have grown, produced and cooked your food, and for those who are cleaning up after you.

YANBU at all.

Ideally children shouldn't have strong condiments like Ketchup at all IMO to allow their palates to develop without automatically reaching for the sweet sugary thing. I was t allowed it as a child and I don't plan to give it to my child when he's on solid food.

Manners are so important and people do judge. Wishing they didn't won't change that.

@Zerrin13

Table manners are very important to me. Seeing someone ieating in a restaurant and holding cutlery in an unconventional way is ugly. Its offensive to many people. I notice it immediately. Knife in the left hand, holding cutlery with the hand wrapped round it and the thumb in the air! Stabbing food with the fork then putting it in the mouth without cutting it or using the knife! I'm sorry but its downright ugly. The worst thing though is finishing a meal and not even being bothered to put the knife and fork together! Just leaving there all splayed over a dirty plate! Its bloody foul!

Honestly how do you even enjoy a meal out when you spend the whole time watching and concerning yourself with what other people are doing??

When I'm out eating I'm engaged in conversation, I'm generally enjoying my food and the company I'm with.....

I'd be pissed off if the person I was with was so busy watching the tables around us that they were effective ignoring me - that's the bloody height of bad manners!!

The only way I ever win is by repeating ad nauseam that I don’t care for etiquette or manners for the sake of them, but because the rules that I care about are to show courtesy and consideration for others. As such, I don’t care which hand holds the knife, but I do care about talking with your mouth full or waving your cutlery about or not lining them vertically on your plate when you’ve finished eating. I don’t teach my DS to hold the door open for my DD, but I do teach them both to hold the door open for the elderly/ people with hands full/ me grin. I’ve taught them that at home and at GP’s houses they take their dirty dishes to the sink as there are no waiters or waitresses there to serve them, everywhere else they follow my lead. They don’t start until everyone is served, and don’t get up until everyone has finished. No getting up to go to the loo in the middle of a meal. Pleases and thank you’s.
That makes sense.
Focusing on actual manners makes perfect sense.

Ideally children shouldn't have strong condiments like Ketchup at all IMO to allow their palates to develop without automatically reaching for the sweet sugary thing. I was t allowed it as a child and I don't plan to give it to my child when he's on solid food.

We all said that at the time about our PFB 😆

I've never heard ketchup called a "strong" condiment before 😅

I do agree that children should learn how to use cutlery, but don’t provide ketchup in a bottle if you don’t want your children to squeeze it out on their food. Provide a bowl and a serving spoon.

If you think that’s a bit OTT for family meals, then you have your answer.

I've never heard ketchup called a "strong" condiment before

It isn't strong. It's sweet - and of course the PFB Must Not Be Exposed To The Evils Of Sugar.

Far better to teach moderation than to ban things. As for strong condiments - what's the consensus on tabasco sauce?

[quote Insertfunnyname]@bookworm14 he isn’t left handed. Of course left handers eat the other way. It’s knife in dominant hand.[/quote]
I’m left handed but hold my knife in my right hand.

OP In my experience the worst manners would have to go to Americans, who (very generally speaking) have terrible table manners. So many can’t even hold a knife or fork properly, never mind in the correct hand.

Also WTAF is with the B and C manners, where C manners are for Daddy but OMG how very dare you belch in front of the delicate flower that is mummy where are your B manners?

Tommy K not highbrow? WTAF?

I can't abide people shovelling up their food, using a fork as a spoon.

I can't abide people reaching across instead of asking for the item to be passed.

I can't abide people who shout, hoot and yelp at the table.

I can't abide those who wipe their mouth with their hand or, possibly worse, leave dribbles of food at the side of their mouth or on their chin.

I can't abide those who stick a finger in their mouths to dislodge a piece of food.

I can't abide people who wave their cutlery around inches from the faces of others.

I can't abide-makes me ill-people talking with their mouths open, belching or farting at the table.

Show a bit of consideration when you share a table with others and if you can't do that, then shuffle off to your bedroom and eat alone rather than put others off.

If you can't behave in the company of others, then don't impose yourself into the company of others until you are fit to do so.

That's my ruling, that's my judgement and if anyone thinks they aren't being judged, then they are a dolt as well as lacking in table manners.

That's my ruling, that's my judgement and if anyone thinks they aren't being judged, then they are a dolt as well as lacking in table manners.

But what is your ruling on ketchup etiquette where a squeezy bottle is provided, because that is the question here?!

The ketchup thing: I don’t know anyone who would squirt it anywhere other than at the edge of the plate (and the ramekin thing is wasteful - so, out of consideration for the farmers and producers and the environment, I wouldn’t advocate it). I think I’d tell my DC not to squirt it all over their food, for the same reason I’ve taught them not to add salt to their food until they’ve tasted it and found it wanting. It would also look unpleasant and those squirty bottles are grim. It’s fine - whatever. If the children are little, it’s fine. I’d be if my 14/15yo+ DC we’re doing it.

Surely the producers don't mind if you waste some as then you buy more and they make more profit. Also not many people need to taste a chip or a fish finger to know if they'd like ketchup with it

@roarfeckingroarr

YANBU at all.

Ideally children shouldn't have strong condiments like Ketchup at all IMO to allow their palates to develop without automatically reaching for the sweet sugary thing. I was t allowed it as a child and I don't plan to give it to my child when he's on solid food.

Manners are so important and people do judge. Wishing they didn't won't change that.

Theresa May is that you?

I’ve been to a lot of very formal dinners and felt so sorry for the odd person looking at their cutlery in total bewilderment
If they cared so much, they could learn very quickly before attending the meal. They were probably laughing and feeling sorry for those who cared so much about it all.

The irony if people stuck to the convention and desperately concerned about being judge is that they probably don't realise that conventions are different in different countries. I wonder how many have gone to such meals in France or invited by French people and whilst feeling very proud of their impeccable manners, would have been talked about after the meal as the way to hold cutlery and hold hands are opposite and what is considered good manners in the UK is the pinnacle of bad manners in France!

Table manners seem to be a dying art around where I am. It's hugely important to learn, I'm in your camp OP.

They don't need to use them at home but they need to know how to hold themselves should the occasion ever arise.

Imagine a client dinner when they're grown up and they're licking their knives and talking with their mouths open. It's poor form and reflects badly on their manners, rightly or wrongly.

Also we have a ketchup bowl with a meal that has to be spooned onto the plate because I was sick of rinsing the stuff down the sink after too much was squirted over the plate. Might as well have poured the stuff down the bloody sink the amount that was wasted!