To want to teach proper table manners to children?

[Insertfunnyname]

Having an argument with DH because he is refusing to accept that there is an etiquette to serving ketchup. His table manners are terrible as he was never taught them. He can’t use cutlery correctly and it’s a bit of an ongoing battle because I try to teach table manners to our sons and he undermines me and says it doesn’t matter how they use cutlery or what hand they hold the knife in etc etc as anyone who judges a lack of table manners lives in the last century.

We have 3 primary aged children and on the rare occasion they use ketchup they pour it all over their food. I said that it should be poured on the side of the plate and food dipped in it (ideally, if you’re in company or restaurant setting)

Leaving aside the issue that ketchup isn’t that high brow a food in the first place (!) it’s really important to me that they are taught table manners because rightly or wrongly society DOES judge poor manners.

He thinks I’ve invented this form of table manners that ketchup shouldn’t be squirted liberally over food and should in fact be poured in one spot at the side. Of course the main issue is he doesn’t place any value on table manners in general so this is really the straw that broke the camel’s back rather than the main issue.

YANBU - there is an etiquette with using ketchup that children should learn/know about

YABU - everyone should use ketchup how they like even when dining with the queen.

My ruling on the Ketchup Question is this:

Firstly, don't shake the bottle as if it were a tambourine

Secondly, do not throw it the whole plate-put it on the side. If you are under 3, this rule will not apply because you are an infant.

Thirdly, avoid making farting noises with the bottle-this can be avoided if you use a glass bottle

Fourthly, make sure the neck of the bottle is not encrusted with old sauce

Fifthly, do not try to comply with rule four by licking the neck of the bottle.

Sixthly, if you are the host and on an economy drive do not try to make the ketchup go further by adding water. This could flow out onto the plate of your unsuspecting guest and mark you as parsimonious-as well as being ill mannered.

Seventhly, if your fellow diners are over four, put it in a ramekin with a spoon. By doing this, you will eradicate the danger of breaking most of the above rules.

That is my ruling on The Ketchup Question

A PP just reminded me - people who start eating before everyone's been served. Rude.

Wise words from LadyFelsham on an important topic.

Nods sagely

@dontdisturbmenow

I’ve been to a lot of very formal dinners and felt so sorry for the odd person looking at their cutlery in total bewilderment If they cared so much, they could learn very quickly before attending the meal. They were probably laughing and feeling sorry for those who cared so much about it all.

The irony if people stuck to the convention and desperately concerned about being judge is that they probably don't realise that conventions are different in different countries. I wonder how many have gone to such meals in France or invited by French people and whilst feeling very proud of their impeccable manners, would have been talked about after the meal as the way to hold cutlery and hold hands are opposite and what is considered good manners in the UK is the pinnacle of bad manners in France!

Don’t forget that slurping noodles loudly is considered very good etiquette in East Asian countries, and a compliment to the chef!

@VinylDetective

At home, the same standards should apply. You should be teaching a child that maintaining high standards is, in the first place, about self respect.

He’s 45 now so that ship’s sailed! I’m cool with it, he’s got enough self respect for me.

I hated getting criticised how I prepared and ate food when I was living with my parents. There are basic standards like holding knife and fork, eating with your mouth closed, not burping etc. However, if someone told me how to pour ketchup on my chips or whatever it would irritate me.

@BarryWhiteIsMyBrother

A PP just reminded me - people who start eating before everyone's been served. Rude.

That is awful. It shouldn’t even have to be mentioned because waiting until everyone is served is simply good manners, surely.

Well of course table manners are important, we expect our children to have knees under the table, elbows off, cutlery correctly held. But we don't dictate how they should apply sauce 😂

I wouldn't worry about the manner of putting the ketchup on, but squirting it all over suggests using too much. A neat blob is easier to ensure they don't have so much sugar.

In our house the DC (18mo and 4yo) get a blob and then the ketchup/mayo get put back in the kitchen. Otherwise they nag for more so they can eat it with their fingers!

I voted YABU but mainly because I'm jealous that you've got table manners down to this, I'm still trying to stop my DC from putting their plates on their heads.

LadyFelsham has elucidated the ketchup question and no more needs to be said on that subject.

As for the client dinner, I am sorry to report that I once attended a job interview lunch where the other candidate repeatedly stuck his knife into his mouth. As well as giving a very indifferent presentation. He still got the job. He was the local candidate.

Manners may make the man but they're not a guarantee of success in later life.

@TheKeatingFive

Wise words from LadyFelsham on an important topic.

Nods sagely

Thank you @TheKeatingFive and, as you imagine, my 28 month old also nodded sagely and was hugely saddened when he realised that others had to have these things explained to them.

NB my son is left handed and I tried to encourage him to use his left for the knife when he was little as I thought he'd find it more comfortable but he prefers it the 'regular' way.
By 'correctly' I don't mean which hand I just mean how it's held.

I wonder how much of this etiquette is supposedly ‘common sense’, and how much is actually gendered and specific to female niceties of behaviour (akin to the way girls used to be sent to ‘finishing school’). Above all, what shines through is an overriding concern with ‘not being judged’ - something that men generally care much less about, to their significant professional advantage.

I’d be curious to see how this discussion would unfold in a male dominated form.

Tbh OP, I'd pick your battles. The ketchup is on the plate and not smeared up the wall, that's a win in our house!

I wasn't expecting this to be about ketchup. When I read the title I was thinking more like, chew with your mouth closed and dont eat with your fingers sort of thing, in which case I dont think it's unreasonable to want to teach your kinds good table manners. Bbuuuut this seems to be all about ketchup, so not sure its really a huge deal.

my 28 month old also nodded sagely and was hugely saddened when he realised that others had to have these things explained to them.

😂😂😂

He’s been dealing with a lot recently.

I eat with my knife and fork the 'wrong' way so some posters would be appalled.

I am right-handed now but used to be ambidextrous and still use my left hand more than most righties. I don't care if people judge me. I have good manners - table etiquette included

They were probably laughing and feeling sorry for those who cared so much about it all.

I can assure you they were very far from laughing. Military formal dinners are intimidating when you know your way round the cutlery and glasses. Those people were like rabbits in headlights. I felt very sorry for them.

Zerrin13
Table manners are very important to me.
Seeing someone ieating in a restaurant and holding cutlery in an unconventional way is ugly. Itoffensive to many people. I notice it immediately. Knife in the left hand, holding cutlery with the hand wrapped round it and the thumb in the air! Stabbing food with the fork then putting it in the mouth without cutting it or using the knife!
I'm sorry but its downright ugly. The worst thing though is finishing a meal and not even being bothered to put the knife and fork together! Just leaving there all splayed over a dirty plate! Its bloody foul!

Jeez, I would love for you to be sat nearby when we are eating out with ds....I have a feeling your cat bum mouth would purse so much, you'd actually turn inside out.

I can assure you they were very far from laughing. Military formal dinners are intimidating when you know your way round the cutlery and glasses. Those people were like rabbits in headlights. I felt very sorry for them.

I used to cater events for high ranking military- company I worked for did all the drinks provision for the 2 garrisons near by (army and RAF). I can honestly say that on the most part those officers were too pissed by the time food was served to give a shit if you pulled your hair clip out your hair and scooped your food up with that 😆

Table manners are hugely important IMO.
Learning them early is the way to go.
It is hard to unlearn poor habits.
.
Also poor table etiquette is often cited high on the deal breaker list in relationships.

I would be allergic to a man who wouldn't want his children to learn these basic skills.

People judge awful table manners.

DH thinks my table manners are poor. I think DH's table manners are poor. We grew up in different countries and cultures which likely explains it: all you pp proudly declaring your wonderful table manners and grasp of etiquette and sneering at those lesser beings who don't do it quite like you would be looked down on as mannerless idiots in many settings.

I have basic expectations of my dc: don't chew with your mouth open or talk with your mouth full, use cutlery and not your bare hands (unless no cutlery is provided in which case, bare hands is expected), don't grab and snatch. Everything else is just gravy. Or ketchup.

@midnightstar66

I can assure you they were very far from laughing. Military formal dinners are intimidating when you know your way round the cutlery and glasses. Those people were like rabbits in headlights. I felt very sorry for them.

I used to cater events for high ranking military- company I worked for did all the drinks provision for the 2 garrisons near by (army and RAF). I can honestly say that on the most part those officers were too pissed by the time food was served to give a shit if you pulled your hair clip out your hair and scooped your food up with that 😆

Teehee

I recently recruited someone (part of my job and I do this regularly). We met over coffee and all seemed good - he got the job. However during video calls with clients while we are WFH I noticed a lack of suitable dress code on this man's (early/mid 20s) part - he was wearing a baggy black T-shirt in most calls. I had to ask him to wear more suitable clothing for these calls, even though we are all WFH atm. I am now also wondering how he'd come across during lunch with a client. This is in fact something I have been concerned about for a while. Because there's no way we'd let someone attend a client meeting over lunch if they couldn't navigate their way around the proper cutlery usage and other table manners. And this would mean their stretch as part of our team wouldn't last long.

So going back to OP, the ketchup question may have been about ketchup, but the principle has further reaching applications. Because if you are someone who is unaware of table manners, including spluttering ketchup all over your food, you probably are also unaware of which glass to use, you won't be using your napkin to dab your lips before drinking, and you'll be putting your napkin on the chair when you leave the table.

If you're responsible for recruitment and staff changes, these are things you are likely to notice in a professional environment.

"You won't be using a napkin to dab your lips before drinking".

What? Is this a thing??