To want to teach proper table manners to children?

[Insertfunnyname]

Having an argument with DH because he is refusing to accept that there is an etiquette to serving ketchup. His table manners are terrible as he was never taught them. He can’t use cutlery correctly and it’s a bit of an ongoing battle because I try to teach table manners to our sons and he undermines me and says it doesn’t matter how they use cutlery or what hand they hold the knife in etc etc as anyone who judges a lack of table manners lives in the last century.

We have 3 primary aged children and on the rare occasion they use ketchup they pour it all over their food. I said that it should be poured on the side of the plate and food dipped in it (ideally, if you’re in company or restaurant setting)

Leaving aside the issue that ketchup isn’t that high brow a food in the first place (!) it’s really important to me that they are taught table manners because rightly or wrongly society DOES judge poor manners.

He thinks I’ve invented this form of table manners that ketchup shouldn’t be squirted liberally over food and should in fact be poured in one spot at the side. Of course the main issue is he doesn’t place any value on table manners in general so this is really the straw that broke the camel’s back rather than the main issue.

YANBU - there is an etiquette with using ketchup that children should learn/know about

YABU - everyone should use ketchup how they like even when dining with the queen.

Any food that can take ketchup isn't fine dining and can probably be eaten with your hands. No etiquette lesson needed here.

@midnightstar66

I can assure you they were very far from laughing. Military formal dinners are intimidating when you know your way round the cutlery and glasses. Those people were like rabbits in headlights. I felt very sorry for them.

I used to cater events for high ranking military- company I worked for did all the drinks provision for the 2 garrisons near by (army and RAF). I can honestly say that on the most part those officers were too pissed by the time food was served to give a shit if you pulled your hair clip out your hair and scooped your food up with that 😆

Really? I’ve never been told one of those. Afterwards perhaps, definitely not before.

@OrionNebula

"You won't be using a napkin to dab your lips before drinking".

What? Is this a thing??

Yes - so you don't leave a greasy imprint of your lips on the glass.

@BarryWhiteIsMyBrother ok, so you are meant to dab your mouth before you take every sip? Frankly, fuck that.

Can I ask what line of work you are in, where this would be expected? I work for a large multinational and there is plenty of corporate dinners and socialising. Everyone just follows basic table manners. I honestly can't imagine noticing a mark on someone's glass unless of course it is at the start of the meal and the restaurant hasn't cleaned it properly!

I work in high tech - mainly with CEOs and CXOs. Lots of regular client dinners but also many black tie, awards and charity ones. And you wouldn't necessarily dab every single time but if you're eating something quite oily/greasy you don't want your glass to look gross. So you may only do that during one course, depending on what it is. At the end of the day it's very much a matter of common sense but it's important to be able to switch things up a gear when necessary, that's all, IMO.

@BarryWhiteIsMyBrother

I work in high tech - mainly with CEOs and CXOs. Lots of regular client dinners but also many black tie, awards and charity ones. And you wouldn't necessarily dab every single time but if you're eating something quite oily/greasy you don't want your glass to look gross. So you may only do that during one course, depending on what it is. At the end of the day it's very much a matter of common sense but it's important to be able to switch things up a gear when necessary, that's all, IMO.

Ok that makes more sense!

@HighNoon

Any food that can take ketchup isn't fine dining and can probably be eaten with your hands. No etiquette lesson needed here.

This is obvious so why haven’t more people picked up on it?! The ludicrous idea of there being etiquette involved in eating Chicken McNuggets, liberally daubed in tomato ketchup, out of a blooming box!!

Very controlling to dictate how someone pours their ketchup.

I find the idea of anybody “elucidating” about ketchup, plain silly. I don’t have the stuff in the house so I’m hardly going to require a faux Lady’s help.

It speaks volumes about the general batshittery on this site that a certain poster’s tongue in cheek posts are so often interpreted as deadly serious.

I don’t have the stuff in the house

You win. Or perhaps the poster who wasn’t going to allow her PFB access to ‘such a strong condiment’ 😂

Table manners should be about not disgusting other people and making them feel sick or uncomfortable, imo. So, not eating with your mouth full, or splattering peas all over the tablecloth, that sort of thing. What hand you hold your knife in, or how you serve your sauce isn't really important. And I bet you anything that the Queen wouldn't bat an eyelid at someone putting ketchup on top of their food rather than at the side. Table manners and etiquette is about making other people feel comfortable - I remember reading a story about a banquet where Prince Charles was hosting a foreign visitor who didn't know 'proper' table manners and who drank his little bowl of lemon water that was meant for washing his fingers after eating something or other that was messy. Obviously, the visitor was technically 'wrong' but didn't do anything unpleasant, and apparently Prince Charles saw it, and then drank his finger bowl thing too, to make the guy feel more comfortable, and then everyone did it. I think that's nice etiquette.

@DappledThings

Deciding that because an old convention has an issue with left handed eating that other people are wrong and then judging them/ feeling superior is absolutely unpleasant snobbery. As I say my bigger issue is it being considered the left-handed way. It is how some left-handed and some (albeit probably fewer) right-handers choose to eat. It doesn't make it "the left-handed way" and I resent my left-handedness being invoked in this way.

Of course it’s the left-handed way, regardless of how much you resent it because it clashes with your world view. And we don’t choose to eat left-handed, for fuck’s sake.

Those of us who eat left-handed don’t choose it any more than you choose to write left-handed.

You, like me and so many others, simply have cross dominance, which is why you eat right-handed while I write right-handed and do nearly everything else left-handed.

I’ve seen what happens when someone like me is forced to eat right-handed as child, and as an adult they are still incapable of using cutlery ‘properly’, only now they can’t do it left-handed either so they’re stuck eating in the most awkward way, so us left-handed eaters can’t win in your eyes and those like you no matter what we do.

Your attitude isn’t snobbish or any of the other adjectives you wanted us to label you. It’s just ignorance and displays a lack of intelligence and logical thinking capacity.

Is this a joke? I was reading that wondering what could "ketchup etiquette" be, you just pick up the bottle and squeeze it. As long as they aren't putting loads on who cares where they squeeze it.

I think chips are best served with ketchup squirted all over them. Even better if it's in a cardboard cone at the seaside. Piping hot chips, ketchup, salt and vinegar. In a cone. Oh and gravy. 😂

I agree table manners are important but I don’t get the fixation on knife and fork in the ‘wrong hands’, as mentioned before people have different dominant hands so it varies which hand is the ‘correct’ one for the knife/fork. It’s not something that I notice tbh (unlike chewing with mouth open and obvious, unpleasant lack of manners)

What do you think of curry sauce on fish and chips?

Have you ever had cheesy chips, what do you think about them?

By the way I read an article last year that "table manners" are racist. I think it was this one. www.todaysparent.com/family/parenting/why-the-way-we-teach-kids-table-manners-is-actually-kind-of-racist/

I'm all for teaching children to use a knife and fork correctly, keep elbows of the table, eat with their mouths closed etc, but I wouldn't be bothered about the ketchup. It's not like they would be eating ketchup in a very formal setting anyway.

That date says it wasn't last year but I def didn't read it July this year, hmmm

Table manners are very important, your husband obviously has no etiquette, you carry on showing your children manners, they need to know for the future how to conduct themselves in restaurants and dinner parties ect. X

I kind of get where you're coming from. My mother grew up in an upper middle class family and my grandparents were quite formal with table manners. I was taught you don't spread your entire piece of toast with butter you put some on the side of your plate and butter a small amount as you eat it - same with bread rolls before dinner - you break a small piece off and butter it. I have to be honest - the first time I saw my boyfriend squeeze ketchup all over his food I was shocked! 😂 But I realised that these rules are old-fashioned now. Most people make a slice of toast and spread their butter and marmite over the whole thing! And it doesn't really matter! I think there is value in teaching your DC the table manners that are more relevant nowadays like not talking with food in your mouth. There can be different rules for if you are eating in a formal setting but they don't need to be followed during a normal family dinner.

Regarding the use of knife and fork I think my DC took a bit longer to learn this than I did as we are vegetarian and don't often eat food that needs cutting up.

I'm completely baffled that so many people care about which hands the fork and knife go.

I am right handed and hold my fork in my right hand because thats the most comfortable way for me. This doesnt affect anyone else and there is no logical reason this should be offensive.

The ketchup thing is just silly, however your husband prefers to eat ketchup is his choice.

People may think ds has poor table manners, he still can't cut up food at 16 & struggles with a knife & fork. He doesn't have poor table manners, he has a disability, Hypotonia, which means his muscle tone is so poor. He struggles with fine motor skills including handwriting, tying shoelaces, buttons, drawing & using cutlery. He is very good at covering up, if he was in a restaurant or in company where he couldn't ask for his food to be cut up he would choose something that is easy to eat like curry & rice where no cutting is needed.

@TheKeatingFive

It speaks volumes about the general batshittery on this site that a certain poster’s tongue in cheek posts are so often interpreted as deadly serious.

I don’t have the stuff in the house

You win. Or perhaps the poster who wasn’t going to allow her PFB access to ‘such a strong condiment’ 😂

Of course they were tongue in cheek. But very try hard.

@Chickenwing

I'm completely baffled that so many people care about which hands the fork and knife go.

I am right handed and hold my fork in my right hand because thats the most comfortable way for me. This doesnt affect anyone else and there is no logical reason this should be offensive.

The ketchup thing is just silly, however your husband prefers to eat ketchup is his choice.

Absolutely this! I'm very right-handed (really clumsy with my left) and have always eaten with my fork in my right hand. I vaguely remember my parents trying to teach me to do it the other way, but it never stuck. I can do it, and do on the very rare occasion that I'm in an environment where people might be judging me and I care about that, like a work thing, but it's uncomfortable and distracts from the enjoyment of the meal.

I don't get why everyone insists that you should do the thing which requires the most dexterous ability - navigating food from your plate to your mouth - with your less dexterous hand. It's 'correct', but why?! And why does it matter?

I wouldn't squirt ketchup all over my food though, that makes it soggy.