To think people think your a better person because of your job status/money?

[Worriedaboutcovid19]

Just musing really after a discussion with my partner.

I really wonder why money/job title has such an affect on the way people treat you as its so strange when you really think about it.

When you meet someone for first time they ask you what job you do, if you say something 'impressive' like a surgeon/solicitor the person asking instantly looks impressed and the you will get treated with much respect.

I thought thats because you obviously worked extremely hard and must be committed/consistent/have strong work ethics which are valuable skills in society that not everyone has.

However..

The same type of respect/admiration goes to people who are wealthy by luck/inheritance whatever.

Random Example: if your friend has invited another friend to joint you for a meal they may say "my friend 'molly' will be joining us for tea tonight. Her dad's the owner of warburtons bread."

Why is that relevant?!

Its not just socially either. It impacts your experiences in how you navigate the world.

I drive a 20 year old banger, own a house in a shit area and am a black woman. However I am also a professional on a very good salary but I am admittedly frugal and not bothered about big houses/cars. Not because I am moral, but because I prefer to waste my cash elsewhere (makeup, clothes and holidays tbh).

I've had several incidents when I've had to deal with professionals whilst wearing a tracksuit on a scruffy lazy day.

Incidents:

1. Getting rushed into hospital due to illness. The staff were kind of dismissive of me until my job title came up. Then suddenly when they realised I was quite a high up professional, the attitude completely changes and I have such good care. Then when admitted to a ward the doctor comes in with "ooh it says on your notes you do XYZ?" As if to say "your one of us, let's be friendly".

1. Again in a scruffy tracksuit and driving my banger car through a rough estate. I get into a car accident (other drivers fault completely).

The police show up. Treat me with utter disdain and suspicion. Ask where I was heading. So I tell them I was on my way home to get dressed to go to work after staying at a friend's. Police ask me where I work in a very abrupt manner. I tell them and suddenly I'm treated so well, asked how I am, comment on how hard my job must be and lots of banter/polite chit chat.

I was obviously prejudged. But prejudged as what? Not worthy of respect as I may be poor? Not a valuable person as I may work in an unskilled job or be unemployed?

These are just 2 incidents that stand out in a long chain.

I've also noticed I get the best treatment from my GP's. If I cant get an appointment they will email me to see if I would like one the next day which isn't typical protocol. They refer me instantly to other services if needed without being dismissive, ask me how the jobs going etc. Yet I know of 2 other people in low paid jobs in retail who have polar opposite experiences with the same surgery.

So I ask mumsnet why do you think this is?
Why do people value others based on job status and money?

There are people in my profession who are awful people as with any other job. There are people who work as a part time waitress/waiter who are lovely people.

Job and money literally have no bearing on how moral a human is. Its basic logic. Yet society still treat strangers better if they drive a range rover and live in a 5 bed house. Why? Putting them on a pedal stool won't suddenly make you rich too or give you the job/house they have.

Why is society like this?

What an absolute shame then that someone intelligent or brainy chooses to only for for a job at a supermarket rather than for something that they could utilise their intelligence, challenge themselves and make some money from it 🤷‍♀️

You do realise that low paid jobs must be done by someone right? Why not want someone intelligent, that is enjoying the job or is satisfied with it to do it?

If all intelligent people go for the high paying jobs.. what kind of people would there be left for care workers,nursery workers,social workers, supermarkets, teaching assistants etc?

I'm smart , there are reasons why I'm in a low paid job but that's irrelevant. I'm a TA and I'm definitely being challenged, using my intelligence and skills , learning new things and doing my absolute best to help children learn. It's not my fault society considers it an "easy job" with no skills needed so it's ok to be paid peanuts.

Would you really want your child to spend 5 days a week , 6 hours a day with someone who isn't intelligent(because obviously if they were they'd have a better paid job).

What is a shame is how much I'm paid but it is what it is. I don't consider it a waste of my intelligence or a "shame".

You can never resolve these things on these threads. At one extreme you have communism where everyone is paid the same whatever they do and at the other an entirely free market with most people somewhere in the middle perhaps supporting the fact we have these days a minimum wage. We did not have one in the UK until 1998.Most of my life there was no minim um wage but as employers needed workers and workers needed to live wages had to be set anyway at some kind of minimum.

Why the debate about intelligence? This is about discrimination, stereotypes and prejudices people have about various races AND socio-economic class. Unfortunately I lack any idea of how we can overcome this.

It doesnt have to be a polarised choice between communism and free markets. Both leads to corruptions and nepotism at top rungs anyway. Nordic models, which have higher taxes and government intervention, a socialist tilt, arguably can achieve more equality than either. Maybe one way to achieve greater equality is modernising education, more skilled workforce, supporting innovative enterprises etc. I once baulked at the idea of a welfare state but theres value for universal basic income and well thought out regulation in practically every sector without stifling enterprise.

I think the only job I truly would be impressed by is an astronaut. Or if someone had come from a very disadvantaged background & had done very well with their own business

I "met" a lady the other week (in an online meeting) who was genuinely a rocket scientist. Now that did impress me!

I get it all the time. People seem very impressed by my job as a professional.

I often wear scruffy clothes and don't look the part. I'm not posh and I certainly don't act stuffy which is how people expect me to.

I do use it to my advantage on occasion. I remember the doctor asking me something and he was very belittling. I put him right and he did have the decency to apologise and look shame faced.

I just think it's their issue and not mine. I'm the same person whatever my job.

@funograph

Why the debate about intelligence? This is about discrimination, stereotypes and prejudices people have about various races AND socio-economic class. Unfortunately I lack any idea of how we can overcome this.

People brought it up. And intelligence(or a presumed lack of) often features in discrimination and prejudice.

People thought (and some still do) that women are not as smart and capable as men.
People thought (and some still do) that certain races aren't as smart and capable as white people.
People thought (and some still do) that people with disabilities aren't as intelligent or capable as people without.

There is a direct link between financial value and the assumed character/personality/level of intelligence of a person.

I've definitely been judged in the past for what car I drive. I had a Honda Jazz. I know it's a granny car but my dad gave it to me for free, and it's a pity they have the granny image because they are really decent cars.

But there is no question that the attitude of at least one neighbour and acquaintances changed towards us when we changed the car for something that is perceived to be better (though it was a Toyota so just as boring I think) a few years later. People can be so shallow.

It's also a bit of a joke that they look down on DH and me but actually I outearn the woman, so they're looking down on us because our household income is lower than theirs (or they perceive it to be).

@AccidentallyOnPurpose

What an absolute shame then that someone intelligent or brainy chooses to only for for a job at a supermarket rather than for something that they could utilise their intelligence, challenge themselves and make some money from it 🤷‍♀️

You do realise that low paid jobs must be done by someone right? Why not want someone intelligent, that is enjoying the job or is satisfied with it to do it?

If all intelligent people go for the high paying jobs.. what kind of people would there be left for care workers,nursery workers,social workers, supermarkets, teaching assistants etc?

I'm smart , there are reasons why I'm in a low paid job but that's irrelevant. I'm a TA and I'm definitely being challenged, using my intelligence and skills , learning new things and doing my absolute best to help children learn. It's not my fault society considers it an "easy job" with no skills needed so it's ok to be paid peanuts.

Would you really want your child to spend 5 days a week , 6 hours a day with someone who isn't intelligent(because obviously if they were they'd have a better paid job).

What is a shame is how much I'm paid but it is what it is. I don't consider it a waste of my intelligence or a "shame".

You’re completely projecting about this. I have said that I think some lower wage jobs require intelligence. Teaching assistants certainly (and a hard job that I wouldn’t want to do!)

But supermarket workers - nope. I think many many of them use it as a job to fit within their lifestyle rather than a career. For example, I worked at a supermarket while studying to earn extra money. Wasn’t a career move.

People thought (and some still do) that certain races aren't as smart and capable as white people.

That's a good point, when you put it that way. It clicked when you applied that statement to women, disabled and i can see the same for social class, job you do etc. I'm probably slow and should RTFT. Is perceived intelligence the underlying cause of various forms of discrimination (sexism, racism, etc) then?

@funograph

People thought (and some still do) that certain races aren't as smart and capable as white people.

That's a good point, when you put it that way. It clicked when you applied that statement to women, disabled and i can see the same for social class, job you do etc. I'm probably slow and should RTFT. Is perceived intelligence the underlying cause of various forms of discrimination (sexism, racism, etc) then?

I think it's more an excuse and justification to see/treat people as less . That is at the root of all prejudice and discrimination. The conviction that other people are beneath you and worth less than you. There's a reason why disadvantaged groups have been often likened to animals ,even by supporters.That then spreads across (sex,race,sexuality, disabilities etc) and takes many forms . The intelligence side was more socially acceptable (still is I'd say) and easily "proved" especially when the disadvantaged groups didn't actually have the opportunity or right to show their intelligence.

There's a certain power and illusion of safety by not being "other".

Imagine not having to do anything at all, not mattering what kind of person you are,what job you do,how smart you are but simply being better ,more worthy,more trustworthy etc simply by being white,male,able bodied etc. It's an intoxicating and addictive power especially for those with not much going on(financially,morally,intellectually etc). They might be the lowest of the low, and everyone looked down on them , but they'll never be as low as x.

That obviously changed form throughout the years and it's more nuanced and subtle now. But at the core of it, it's still the same principle.

We spend a lot of money on holidays, and I've in a nice house. I drive an old car with a dent in the side - it really confuses people. I think people like boxes.

The intelligence point is a good one. Women are fairly often deemed to be less intelligent than men, and black people less intelligent than white people (despite the proliferation of black doctors and consultants populating the NHS). Intelligence seems to be very closely snarled up and interwoven with preconceptions about 'class' (I hate that word). Want evidence of that and you only have to look at how far material snobbery and intellectual snobbery are conflated.

This post caught my eye:

What an absolute shame then that someone intelligent or brainy chooses to only for for a job at a supermarket rather than for something that they could utilise their intelligence, challenge themselves and make some money from it.

Well, I'd disagree. I'm qualified to PhD level, am well into my postdoctural life, and am a university lecturer. During my years in this profession I've been the target of sexual harrassment once and bullying twice. The sector is rife with it. We (academics) work our backsides into the ground, often putting in 50 hours a week or more, to advance our research and still deliver a quality learning experience to students. I've netted lucrative, highly competitive research grants and am internationally recognised in my field. I was still knocked back from a Professorial chair, because no matter how good a researcher I am, unless I perform even more hours' worth of soulless admin roles they've basically told me I can go whistle. I had to decide whether I would 60-70 hour week and dig myself an early grave courtesy of the HE system, or whether I'd carry on prioritising my research and preserve my health. I chose the latter.

In that position you do wonder why you spent years of study and worked up to where you wanted to be, only to receive this as thanks. Bit of bullying on the way, no sweat. Frankly, I think the intelligent ones are probably not those of my ilk but the checkout operatives.

The trouble with judging people on their character is it can take a bit of time, and there are quite a few scenarios where we do need to make a judgement quickly.

I got my current job in part because at interview, we had to do presentations for part of the assessment day. One woman did quite badly in her presentation and everyone knew it. One other guy took it upon himself to pick apart her presentation with smart arse questions. I thought she could do with a break and asked her something easy that allowed her to expand on something she'd already said.

But even that was only partly out of "niceness". I knew she wasn't exactly competition at that stage, and the guy was making it awkward.

It’s not just your job, unfortunately. I remember being about 13 and DDad gave me money to buy DM a birthday present. She wanted a jewellery travel wrap so I pottered into a post jewellers where I was followed by the shop security (in my tracksuit and trainers, slightly scruffy all round) until the moment I opened my mouth and my very educated middle class accent (has been likened to classic Radio 4) came out. And they couldn’t have been more helpful. DH says I still use it when someone’s being difficult on the phone.

It’s all kinds of wrong. But it’s certainly the case.

I agree with you OP. I know black women in particular find it difficult to get decent NHS care due to prejudice as so many of my friends have similar stories to those of your friends.

When I was at university and worked in retail at 18, medical professionals thought I was hard working for doing both and treated me kindly & with care.

When I graduated uni and worked for the same retail company, the same people would treat me with disdain, like I was a silly little girl almost? Just didn’t take me seriously and were so condescending. I had to push to get a referral, where the gynae consultant kept repeating herself loudly and in very “simple” terms as she thought I was too dumb to understand because I worked for retail company presumably she thought I was a minimum wage cashier but I actually had a salaried HR head office job at that point.

When I started my graduate job (in a respectable field) the level of service I received from the NHS changed again. They now go above and beyond based upon my job and appearance alone. I had a consultant who made a massive point to tell me my parents must be extremely proud of me and kept repeating it throughout. They generally do me favours eg bypassing their internal referral process - they absolutely take notice of your career.

So perhaps the take away from the thread is if you do nothing else get your children elocution lessons (which I had by the way even at primary school stage in Newcastle).

@Worriedaboutcovid19

Apologies 'pedalstal' my phone autocorrects everything and is American!

Apologies for offence

Pedestal does not correct to pedal stool.

Nor does it correct to pedalstal.

I am a SAHM. They don't know what I did before I gave it all up to bury myself as a housewife. I have a degree and whilst I am not super clever, I'm not slow either.

I don't appreciate being avoided, ignored, dismissed, being spoken to in a slow careful voice, and oddly hearing rumours that I'm on drugs. However, I don't care. It says more about them than me.

Agree with regard to accents. I have the interesting (i think) insight of having a very neutral accent in Ireland, so if I wander in to a jewellery shop or an antiques shop in Ireland, the salivate, assuming i have money. In the UK most but not all people cannot tell one accent from another, so they categorise all Irish accents in one group.

I also notice the difference transacting any negotiation over the phone here and in the UK. In fairness to the majority of people in the UK now though, they do understad that Ireland is diverse and whatever they assume has a chance of being wrong.

Sadly I think this is a race issue not a job issue. Maybe you are being mistreated because you are black but you feel your job gives you status? I have a good job and I'm white so I have no idea how hard it must be.

We are all guilty of unconscious bias, anyone denying its existence is being ignorant. There is a reason that Pretty Woman scene is so well remembered!

I don't think that people perceive others with traditionally respected careers as 'better' but perhaps have more respect for them? Everyone deserves to be treated with a basic level of respect, but naturally people will have more respect for people in high status careers because they've worked hard to achieve the qualifications required for their chosen career. Deep down, I think it's partly because higher earners and people in low paid but respectable jobs (such as nurses) are seen to be contributing more to the economy and/or society. Even a wealthy person that hasn't earned their lifestyle is respected because others assume that they will be spending money and contributing to the economy in this way.

It might not be fair that a van driver is often treated with less respect that a doctor, but I think this is what it comes down to. My dad is a van driver by the way - so I really don't mean any offense! I wouldn't say that he is automatically perceived as being less moral though.