To think overtly sexy dressing looks very old fashioned?

[BecomeStronger]

E.g Claudia's style looks far more modern than Tess'. I love the way young women will wear flats or even trainers and be comfortable rather than dressing for men.

@TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince

Every single thing that people wear gives a message. I could give so so many examples. It is NOT about being bitchy or nasty. It is a reflection of socioeconomic conditions and social class.

Exactly and it’s fascinating. This thread had the potential to be so interesting, it’s a real shame it’s taken the direction it has.

I just thought it was due to travelling more now to go out! When I’m in my home town I still would dress glam with heels etc but it’s only a 10 minute taxi to the town centre. Where I live now it’s a 10 minute taxi to the train station, then another 20 into Manchester, so I wear sensible shoes and a coat. I feel better being glam as it feels like I’ve put more of an effort in. I’m definitely more flattered by a compliment off a woman than a man though.

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

I love a pencil skirt - such a versatile piece of clothing.

Agreed, I think that they suite almost every female body shape and, for me, they are comfier than trousers. They can be worn with heels, or brogues, or DMs. Also, they sort of signal "dresed up/smart" without actually needing to put much effort in. It is interesting that they have been decribed here as "sexy" because I would have thought of them more as subtly flattering. Not saying everyone should wear them if they dont want to. But I cant see how how they are represive or somehow sexist.

But I cant see how how they are represive or somehow sexist.

Because they can show off the female figure to its best advantage? There's just no need for that sort of thing.

Oddly enough, I don't think they suit me at all.

2 out of the 3 of those ‘sexy’ photos aren’t sexy.

A long grey cardigan is not ‘sexy’ and neither is a long grey tunic jumper and big scarf.

The horrible leather is slightly sexy, but l think it looks horrible. It would look better without the zips. The zips make it look cheaper

Pencil skirts can be difficult to walk in, and therefore could be considered repressive.

Pencil skirts can be difficult to walk in, and therefore could be considered repressive

So can flip flops.

@TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince
"Every single thing that people wear gives a message. I could give so so many examples. It is NOT about being bitchy or nasty. It is a reflection of socioeconomic conditions and social class."

Absolutely agree but what has this to do with women being rude about other women solely because the way they choose to dress? Of course one can determine social class etc. from clothes, however, knowing it doesn't justify the nasty remarks.

Mine are jersey - definitely not hard to walk in. I don't wear them right now, because I am still trying to lose weight but back when I could wear them, they were handy if I needed to look reasonably smart, but I also wore them in the summer with flip flops (I don't suit shorts and have always found dresses a bit tricky).

But you can have a full range of movement (stride) in flip flops. You can’t in a pencil skirt.

I can run and walk normally in flip flops

Clothing is anthropology, and what people are doing is decoding and coming up with mainly the correct result. Clothing is totally about social class and always has been.

I agree & used to work in buying and there is quite a lot of regional differences in shopping habits, styles etc.

Exactly and it’s fascinating. This thread had the potential to be so interesting, it’s a real shame it’s taken the direction it has.

Agree, I'm not sure why discussing why somebody presents in a certain way be it their clothes, car etc is so bad. There's a reason the Royals dress the kids slightly old fashioned. Or Donald Trump wears 80s style suits & no jeans.

I think if there are going to be rules about what women 'should' wear, I'd say wearing clothes that fit comfortably ought to be one. Everything is restrictive if it's too small for you - size up and be comfy.
When I was young I'd buy shoes which looked great but pinched and after a night would run holes in my feet. Looking back I can't think why I thought it was okay to wear shoes that made me bleed. It is possible to get lovely things which don't cause pain.
I think Nicola Sturgeon looks professional and sexy - the sexiness is on the subtlety - I also like her shoes.

I can run and walk normally in flip flops

Two (unrestricted) strides and I'm not wearing any flip flops.

Well each to their own. But l don’t find them particularly restricting.

But all pencil skirts are designed to be narrow, and all pencil skirts restrict movement for every wearer. Not everyone struggles in flip flops.

And flip flops don’t emphasise form in the same way as a pencil skirt. So there are 2 different things going on with pencil skirts.

Restriction, (repression) and emphasis on female form. Women’s clothing has been like this for 100’s of years.

I could equally be judgemental about the uniform so many men wear.

I can’t stand the ugly sandals many men wear in the summer. When they get a big stomach they do the shirt untucked to try and hide it (just lose the gut instead and tuck the shirt in). The flashy jewellery so many of them wear. The over long jeans with Cubans (Simon Cowell we see you). The very fucking ugly Karrimor trainers I had to bin that my OH lived in. The day I saw my bird watcher NDN in a similar pair they had to go.

Things I like. Smart clean clothes. Navy blue suits on a man with brown shiny shoes. Casual clothes that aren’t slobby. A decent pair of jeans with Timberland boots and an oversized top or a more preppy look with a v neck jumper.

Why is emphasis on the female form a bad thing?

Who said it was?

But the majority of items ( not all) that place a huge emphasis on the female form are by their very nature restrictive. Corsets,, girdles, crinolines, high heels all restrict movement.

Pencil skirts became easier to move in with the widespread introduction of Lycra in the 80’s. It was no coincidence that at the same time women were gaining more equality and power in the work place. Well maybe not equality but more freedoms and power. Increased ease of movement both physically and financially.

Why is emphasis on the female form a bad thing?

I suppose it could be construed as divisive. Not everybody has a form they wish to emphasise.

@TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince Most of the fabric used for pencil skirt has a bit of sretch in or is cut on the bias so there is quite a bit of movement. I can cycle in pencil skirts quite happily. I also like the feeling of it being slightly tight when I sit down, its like having a blanket wrapped round my legs. I do see your point about it having the potential to be restrictive (and I wouldnt wear them running) but I feel funny about making individual item of clothing symbols for the patriarchy. Most female clothing is complicated and we miss a lot if we seperate it into "feminist" and "not feminist".

sorry cross posted with your comment about the introduction of lycra. Exactly!
I have had more trouble with trousers splitting (I am large of behind) than pencil skirts.

They aren’t symbols for the patriarchy. Women’s clothing is a history of female social history. There’re growing independence, the times of repression and opening up of freedoms. It runs absolutely and conclusively parallel.

They are symbols of female history. Some of it may be dictated by men but it is about women’s place in society. Try and see above why it may be patriarchal. The pencil skirt appeared in the early 1950’s, at a time when women were about house and home. They had been free in the war, but returned to a traditional role. Hence the full skirts and pencil skirts of the 50’s. This wasn’t necessarily patriarchal, throbs women had filled in the war returned to men when they came back from the war. This was economic and societal rather than patriarchal.

If a female wants to empathise the female form nature gave her, why is that a bad thing? It's her body. To dress how she choses. Even if a pencil skirt is restrictive, if someone wants to wear one, why should they be judged? Comfort is subjective. Comfort is not just physical. When you judge someone for what they wear, you are essentially taking away chose and free will and imposing your beliefs.

I think we agree with each other mostly. I can completely see why it might be patriarchal, but then you could also argue that yoga pants/gym wear is patriarchal because they come with the expectation that we should be incredibly svelte gym bunnies wih high ponytails and no-makeup makeup (Like in most of the advertising for it). But some of the women I do kickoxing with wear tight leggings and look great. I prefer long loose trousers but neither of us are wrong.
Also, when you look at a lot of womens clothing it has a repressive element but also a subversive side. So stilleto heels can be about inhibiting a womans movement, they can also be driven down hard onto the foot of a man who is harrassing you. The ridiculously large hats of the Edwardian era inhibited womens movement and turned them into fanciful objects to be gazed upon. But the extra large hatpins needed to hold them in place made extremely effective weapons. Pencil skirts may have risen to prominece at a time when women were moving back into the home but, as you yourself said, in the 60s and onwards they were modified with lycra as women gained a foothold outside the household. Clothes can be repressive and protective and weapons, and statements of power and statements of femininity and of status and class and a 100 different things all at the same time. What is ridiculous is the idea they are only for men when frankly, most male colleagues would probably be able to say I was wearing a skirt but not the type or coulour.

@Icenii

If a female wants to empathise the female form nature gave her, why is that a bad thing? It's her body. To dress how she choses. Even if a pencil skirt is restrictive, if someone wants to wear one, why should they be judged? Comfort is subjective. Comfort is not just physical. When you judge someone for what they wear, you are essentially taking away chose and free will and imposing your beliefs.

Yup. I do kickboxing and kung fu and running. I really really like my bum, and my leg muscles, and the hips I developed after pregnancy, and my wobbly post-childbirth tummy and my slightly lop-sided boobs. I dont care if other people dont. I do care if people think I must be desperately trying to ensnare a man.