What would you do? Teachers advise 🙏 please

[Whatwouldyoydo]

My 16 yr old dd has just called me in tears.
Currently in 6th form and has been having issues with a male teacher, quite young tries to be funny but often misses the mark.
Several time he’s made wtf comments etc
Today he announced loudly that ‘ Claire wears short skirts to attract the boys” and when no one responded as they were quite shocked he said it again louder.
Dd was so upset she left the room for the toilet and her friend brought her the bag as class was ending.
Dd feels shamed. Fwiw dd dresses totally appropriately. (Dds name is not really Claire)

Dd said she’s complained to another teacher at school about it. Apparently the teacher in question was very anxious when dd didn’t return to class and probably realised he’s overstepped and was asking the girls to txt dd.
What would you do? Leave it for dd to manage the follow up or step up and intervene.

I think it’s unrealistic to expect this teacher to be sacked or to be barred from teaching. Even if a LADO referral leads to any kind of investigation and the complaint being substantiated. As concerning as the behaviour is I just don’t think it’s at the threshold that will lead to the kind of action other posters are talking about. Decisions made by the TRA are publicly available, you can read the kind of extremes that lead to teachers being struck off and sadly this isn’t it in my experience.

I have known teachers sacked for less than this ...

I have too. Safeguarding rules broken - dismissal.

I think it’s unrealistic to expect this teacher to be sacked or to be barred from teaching. Even if a LADO referral leads to any kind of investigation and the complaint being substantiated. As concerning as the behaviour is I just don’t think it’s at the threshold that will lead to the kind of action other posters are talking about.

I agree, but I still think OP should refer to the TRA because I think this behaviour needs to be investigated and recorded.

I have known teachers (wrongly IMO) sacked for a lot less but that didn't stand at tribunal and it's very clear that this school don't see it that way.

I think it's borderline because he kept going and may well have prior (this hasn't come from nowhere).

I think it's borderline

The TRA are (rightly) very reluctant to mandate the permanent end of someone's career. I think there is too much scope for him to say 'error of judgement, lessons learned' and get off with an administrative sanction.

he kept going and may well have prior (this hasn't come from nowhere).

That is why I think it needs reporting, not so much prior conduct as future.

Definitely needs reporting either way; just tempering expectations about what might happen (though OP seems very rational/realistic in her approach already)

not so much prior conduct as future.

You're talking as if he's a NQT and has slipped up innocently. Not the case.

There is no moral argument for putting a -sleezy and sexually harassing-- adult's career over any safeguarding issue involving a child.

Maybe he has already done this before.

You're talking as if he's a NQT and has slipped up innocently. Not the case.

No, I'm talking as if when he does it again the totality of evidence will enable more serious sanction.

I was agreeing that he might have behaved this way but, if he has, it's very unlikely to have reached the TRA. OP referring this case to them (as I suggested early on) would make him subject to more scrutiny in future.

There is no moral argument for putting a -sleezy and sexually harassing-- adult's career over any safeguarding issue involving a child.

You seem to be wildly misreading my point. Feel free to search my comments on this thread for my opinion of a teacher who behaves this way.

My point here was in response to Ginger's about the practicalities of what sanctions may apply and to reinforce what I first suggested- that she should collect statements from the witnesses and refer to the TRA herself, even though he may not be barred from teaching

I have huge respect for teachers but it does seem a ridiculously hard career to get sacked from. He absolutely should not be around children and it's a shame that's unlikely to happen because of this case but I certainly hope proper reports to the LADO and TRA can ensure his behaviour follows him and eventually (?!) catches up with him after her humiliates or hurts further children.

ridiculously hard career to get sacked from
No, I've known people to have been sacked.
However, they tend to go before they're pushed, ie we'll start the process or resign.
They usually just resign

@Maireas

ridiculously hard career to get sacked from No, I've known people to have been sacked. However, they tend to go before they're pushed, ie we'll start the process or resign. They usually just resign

The process only involves them going to tribunal. 9 cases out of 10 they are only put on monitoring. It's practically impossible to sack a teacher.

I don't want to derail the thread, kimchi, but I have known teachers to be sacked. Also "encouraged" to resign.
I have been teaching for a long time, though!

I’ve known one teacher fired for major misconduct.

However, it seems hard to get rid of the proper lazy and shite teachers, who rock up at 8.30 leave at 3.15, can’t behaviour manage, teach awful lessons and don’t mark... who never get given exam classes to teach as so shite and always off sick.

Astonishing, Rainbow! Proceedings can be started for any of those. Being off more than 4 times in one year triggers an interview with the Head. You couldn't get away with not marking or managing behaviour in any schools I've taught in. They can't pass their Performance Management for a start? That is the whole point of targetted observation.

Anyone heard of the "Lemon Dance"?
It's very hard to get rid of a sub-standard teacher, but you can pass them on.....
Best wishes to OP and her daughter, and I hope that you get a respectful response.

I'm sure that in post, teachers have regular updates and refreshers on safeguarding/maintaining boundaries and not sexually harassing their students - but surely this creep if new to teaching, should have all this very fresh in his mind from recent training.

He's been teaching in Kuwait.

I'm sure that in post, teachers have regular updates and refreshers on safeguarding/maintaining boundaries and not sexually harassing their students

Every year although, in fairness, no one actually said to avoid doing this. For some reason I think they presumed we knew not to.

However, it seems hard to get rid of the proper lazy and shite teachers, who rock up at 8.30 leave at 3.15

It is not hard to get rid of a teacher who is actually bad at teaching. There are no special rules for teachers. You can't sack someone for working the hours you pay them for.

The reason many tribunals end in overturning dismissals is because teachers are often sacked inappropriately.

Most people who make it through the two years of training can teach fine. Some get through but most of those don't last long- it's a hard job.

Where someone is persistently poor in class it is usually (at least in part) bad management. There are many problems within the education system but it is rarely as simple as 'bad at teaching'.

However, it seems hard to get rid of the proper lazy and shite teachers, who rock up at 8.30 leave at 3.15, can’t behaviour manage, teach awful lessons and don’t mark... who never get given exam classes to teach as so shite and always off sick.
There's a lot in there and not all of it necessarily accurate.

One of my former colleagues was off sick regularly over the course of a year. It turned out to be cancer. Another former colleague was a great teacher, but she was expensive and the head was only interested in bright young yes people and she was observed and criticised to the point she was driven to a breakdown. She left the profession for good and teaching has lost a great teacher. Being off sick does not make someone a crap teacher.

If a teacher is having such poor classroom behaviour then in my opinion that is a failure of middle and senior leadership most of the time. I've worked with colleagues who need to work on classroom management and lots of backup was in place, plus additional training and support. I've also seen teachers hung out to dry by senior leaders who deny behaviour issues exist in their school, or who bend to the aggressive and confrontational parents who think sanctions don't apply to their children.

I know colleagues for a range of reasons who arrive close to their required time and leave not long after the bell. They are great teachers and thankfully there are still schools out there who don't judge the quality of teachers based on what time they are in the car park. I've worked in schools where I would arrive to work at 7.15am and there were already a dozen cars in the car park. That is not a good sign.

Equally, I hate the idea that anyone who only teaches KS3 is a crap teacher. I know people who are excellent KS3 teachers and great with SEN groups so that's what they teach.

Of course there are poor teachers and there are ways to respond to this, and some of them will tend to move around lower performing schools, but using your list as a way of deciding someone is rubbish is misguided imo.

I rocked up at 8.30 and left at 3.15, and I had time off sick. I also didn't teach exam classes.

I worked my contracted hours at school, plus at home and some of the weekends. I did shows, concerts and lunchtime rehearsals 4 days out of 5. But you wouldn't know that if you were clocking my arrival and leave times (who does that btw?), nor would you know that I was working at home. Because it would be none of your business primarily.

I had time off sick too. Strangely enough, it was because I was ill. Not too sure what else I could have done?

I taught ks3 because the HoD taught KS4 classes..it fitted in better with her reduced timetable, and she was more experienced. This meant of course that I had the luxury of being sat on my arse teaching about 400 kids a week.

I didn't mark a thing. Oh, I provided verbally recorded feedback, for every single pupil for every single assignment, but again you wouldn't know that if you were looking for a tick in a book.

If behaviour management is poor, there's usually a reason, and yes, sometimes it's the teacher, often it's a ridiculously useless behaviour policy.

Absolutely no idea. Clearly.

I work in children's safeguarding. This behaviour is completely unacceptable. Speak to the school and if they do not address this speak to Local Authority safeguarding.

@housemdwaswrong
Well that clearly doesn’t apply to you then... not sure why you've taken it so personally.

Come on, like all jobs, we all know the ones that do jack shit.