Is this everyday sexism or am I being ludicrous?!

[harriethoyle]

Getting married (covid allowing) soon - very small ceremony. We have to apply for our marriage schedule and, on it, my DF is ie Tom Smith and I am Tina Jones formerly known as Jones. We are both divorced. I did not change my name first time around so have only ever been Jones my whole life.

This has really irrationally annoyed me! The assumption is because I was married before and am female, I changed my name but that assumption isn't applied to him. I rang the registrar and pointed this out. She said "It's because you're divorced." I said "we are both divorced. Why is he Tom Smith and I am Tina Jones formerly known as Jones when I have only EVER been Jones." She said "Well that's just the way the system works." I said "It's inappropriate to assume that I changed my name and it's incorrect to imply that I have." And she was completely perplexed by what the issue was.

When I told her that I wanted an email address so I could register my pleasure (I suspect she thinks me a Karen), she went off and checked with the senior registrar and then said that she COULD change it, despite having said it was the way the system worked. So now we are Tom Smith and Tina Jones. Which is correct!

Let's be honest, it's the tiniest blow ever struck against the patriachy but was I right to challenge what I saw as everyday sexism?

YABU - what a thing to expend energy on

YANBU - smash the patriachy one tiny blow at a time!

I'm in touch with someone who's monitoring it and compiling a paper which will be published soon. I can promise you this stuff is definitely going on. And anyone with half a brain should've seen it coming.

@Neron

YABU. Women do change their surnames upon marriage, men do not. Of course they will not assume that about a man. Go ahead and complain if it will make you feel better.

I didn't change my surname on marriage. It's not compulsory.

@Neron

Apologies. I didn’t read the full thread, and certainly wasn’t having a poke....just sharing because it’s unusual.

I do think (thankfully) a lot of Black feminists and minority women in general are divesting from trying to be a part of white feminism under the banner of 'intersectionality' and just pursuing their own causes and organising amongst themselves. The book by Reni Eddo-Lodge I think has also supported this especially for younger Black and minority women. We no longer really need to try and convince or kow-tow to white women as such, or to convince them to be our allies. It so happens that we can continue within our own framework without being gaslighted. So that's why I don't necessarily see it as an issue if a horde of white women see Karen as a misogynist term and rail against it. It's just important that minority women know whatever they're feeling and experiencing isn't just all in their 'head'. A separate movement in which if a young Black woman said to me today that she had her day "totally ruined by this Karen" I would instantly understand her and validate her. That for me is the most important thing.

Karens in the meantime will be speaking amongst themselves about why Karen is the worst thing to happen to humanity since the plague.

So it's unfortunate that there are people out there as you say @kness that bully women just for being named 'Karen' but as a class white women need to have a huge reckoning with themselves and I will not listen to it when it's only seemingly concerned with names on birth certificates.

When Karens have stopped trying to get people like me fired or killed then I can listen till then it's just gonna be a knowing look and another 'oh shit, here comes Karen'.

OP is not being unrasonable about the main topic of the thread but this 'Karen' business is both mysogynistic and ageist. It's an offensive stereotype that suggests that women of a certain demographic are all narrow minded, snobbish, bolshy and racist.

I read Reni Eddo-Lodge's book this year. An excellent book, and she managed to write the whole book without referring to Karens even once.

And you do realise there are lots of black women called Karen too, right? I know several of them are very unhappy about this trend.

@Thehop hey no worries at all, I'll glady admit when I've made a mistake. You're not the only one not to read the whole thing or see my other responses

Yes it was everyday sexism, but you have sunk to that yourself by using the term Karen. It’s really misogynistic.

@Neron

YABU. Women do change their surnames upon marriage, men do not. Of course they will not assume that about a man. Go ahead and complain if it will make you feel better.

This is not so. We double barreled our name and did so by DH changing his name to the new name and then I took his new name. Goodness knows why, but that's how we were advised to do it 40 odd years ago.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

Yabu to complain about perceived everyday sexism then use the term 'Karen'.

This

@strawberrymilkshakemonkey

YANBU at all. I am also getting married soon, and was annoyed (read furious) to find that they need my (estranged and abusive) father's name and occupation for the marriage certificate, but not my mothers. What sort of sexist shite is this??? surely we've moved on from marriage being a transaction between father and husband???!

YANBU OP and I understand your frustration. earlier posters have made the false statement that 'women change their surname, men don't'. this is bullshite! both women and men can CHOOSE to change their name, mix both names or double barrel their names.

it's awful that this is still allowed to happen because 'tradition'.

I know the fathers occupation thing really annoyed me.

I have had no contact with my father fir most of my life. I met him when I was 30ish and had contact with him for a few years which then petered out. He declined to come to my wedding which was around the time.

When I got legally married they wanted my fathers name and occupation. Didn't give a shut about who my mother who raised me single handed was and who was actually attending my wedding. Bit weird and annoying but whatever. What really passed me off is that they asked his occupation why I didn't really know. He's a bit unforthcoming and shifty. So I said he was some sort of businessman. I didn't really know what he did.

They pushed and pressed on that for ages. Like I had some sort of other answer. Really stressed me out on my wedding day (luckily only my legal ceremony so wasn't the end of the world but still). I ended up asking them what they did when someone didn't know their dad at all!?! Can't believe it's the first time they've ever come across someone not knowing their dad before.

Whole thing was bizarre and really unnecessary.

@harriethoyle

If it assists, had I been a man I would have said she perceived me as a Kevin 🤷🏻‍♀️ Guess it shows we're all wound up by different things!

No you wouldn't. A "Kevin" isn't a thing.

I'm in touch with someone who's monitoring it and compiling a paper which will be published soon. I can promise you this stuff is definitely going on. And anyone with half a brain should've seen it coming.

So no evidence but we’re expected to just believe you if we have half a brain.

YANBU. DH took my name when we married and the amount of hoops he had to jump through to do so when compared to what I would have had to have done had I taken his name, was eye opening.

We no longer really need to try and convince or kow-tow to white women as such, or to convince them to be our allies. It so happens that we can continue within our own framework without being gaslighted. So that's why I don't necessarily see it as an issue if a horde of white women see Karen as a misogynist term and rail against it. It's just important that minority women know whatever they're feeling and experiencing isn't just all in their 'head'. A separate movement in which if a young Black woman said to me today that she had her day "totally ruined by this Karen" I would instantly understand her and validate her. That for me is the most important thing.

If it’s a choice between validating a black person wanting to use the term Karen to describe an encounter that left them bruised or a white person annoyed black women have dared to coin a term that encapsulates a particular type of behaviour, then I know which I would choose.

What’s interesting is that all the people that are against the term Karen have shown no sympathy for the black victims of this behaviour. Where is the condemnation of Amy Cooper and her ilk? The silence is deafening as usual.

@MiniMum97 yes it is

Amy Cooper has been widely condemned, which you'd know if you'd read practically any website, paper or magazine. There hasn't been a silence about it, in fact it's been one of the most talked about incidents this year, alongside many others.

@harriethoyle Except that it's barely ever used, because it's about men.

So if I re-marry (I'm divorced and I did take my ex's name, now back to maiden name) will my married name be listed on a new marriage certificate?

I had forgotten the father's details are on there too. If this does change to include the mother's, what if you don't know her? I actually don't want any parental details on a (hypothetical) marriage certificate. I have no idea what that is relevant. In terms of records etc, your parent's (mainly) are on the birth certificate anyway.

Amy Cooper has been widely condemned, which you'd know if you'd read practically any website, paper or magazine. There hasn't been a silence about it, in fact it's been one of the most talked about incidents this year, alongside many others.

I’m talking about on this thread, and you’re getting into the territory of making personal attacks, implying I don’t read. You have shown no sympathy for why this term was coined.

@kness And yet they still exist among us! And have various 'helpful' white women coming to their defence.

Amy Cooper is at the extreme side of things. And thank GOD that man was recording because lord only knows had he not have been the NYPD would have rushed in (and like she said) seen a Black man talking to a white woman in an empty space and shot him - she said as much.

Karens exist everywhere. Most of them aren't trying to get you killed but they are trying to exert authority or indeed offended at your very existence in their space.

Have you looked in to what happened to Emmett Louis Till and why the white woman who wrongly accused him only recently came out with the truth that Emmett was innocent yet he was lynched. Have you considered why Diane Abbott ALONE receives half the abuse sent to female politicians? Yet she went to Cambridge!

Have you considered why Black women are 5 times more likely to die during childbirth than white women?

Have you wondered why Black people are more at risk or dying from covid or indeed more stopped and searched than their white counterparts?

At uni we did many things - it was always the white kids in our crew that carried the drugs because lord only knows had the rest of us been stopped it would have been an entire different story.

Do you wonder why white women increased their vote share for Trump despite him being evidently a misogynist.

Do you know about the so-called golden tears of 'White women'?

So if your only complaint is being called Karen then well done! You made it in life! I only wish that was my only gripe!

White women - and I have said this before - are a huge threat. So carry on crying, I have zero sympathy for Karens. None what-so-ever.

It is a learned skill of white women to cry and render themselves victims instead of facing up to their truths. It serves them to accept misongny to maintain proximity to white supremacist structures.

I would rather deal with the out and out Karens rather than the 'concerned' women who want to touch my curly hair and tell me how much they enjoyed their gap year volunteering in an African village. I have white relatives that still don't understand the concept of being 'mixed race'. I really don't care if someone called Karen is moaning about Karenism - I'm more concerned that so many minorities are being drowned out by this farce of an anti-karen movement.

Well done for completely missing the point.

The use of "Karen" that many feminists object to is its use by men to refer to any middle aged woman who they don't want to fuck.

It’s typical that the 1% pain felt by white women about about the term Karen must be prioritised over the 99% of pain felt by black people.

If your anti racism requires sexism it is pretty limited. I've had enough of the idea that rights for one group of people involve throwing another under the bus.