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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is this everyday sexism or am I being ludicrous?!

292 replies

harriethoyle · 25/11/2020 13:40

Getting married (covid allowing) soon - very small ceremony. We have to apply for our marriage schedule and, on it, my DF is ie Tom Smith and I am Tina Jones formerly known as Jones. We are both divorced. I did not change my name first time around so have only ever been Jones my whole life.

This has really irrationally annoyed me! The assumption is because I was married before and am female, I changed my name but that assumption isn't applied to him. I rang the registrar and pointed this out. She said "It's because you're divorced." I said "we are both divorced. Why is he Tom Smith and I am Tina Jones formerly known as Jones when I have only EVER been Jones." She said "Well that's just the way the system works." I said "It's inappropriate to assume that I changed my name and it's incorrect to imply that I have." And she was completely perplexed by what the issue was.

When I told her that I wanted an email address so I could register my pleasure (I suspect she thinks me a Karen), she went off and checked with the senior registrar and then said that she COULD change it, despite having said it was the way the system worked. So now we are Tom Smith and Tina Jones. Which is correct!

Let's be honest, it's the tiniest blow ever struck against the patriachy but was I right to challenge what I saw as everyday sexism?

YABU - what a thing to expend energy on

YANBU - smash the patriachy one tiny blow at a time!

OP posts:
SusannaSpider · 26/11/2020 09:13

do you think black women should meekly surrender it and find a new term

I think they should have just stuck with the term racist, in the first place. They picked the name in the US because it was seen as a white middle class women's name. In the UK it's generally a working class name and I've know quite a few Asian Karens over the years, so not particularly white either.

But absolutley our target should be the men, the pp who mentioned that wealthy white men will be laughing their socks of at the grenade that they've thrown in between white women and black women. Plus the fact that it's shifting the emphasis onto women being the racist sex, nicely side stepping the fact that white supremacist organisations tend to be mainly mysogynistic.
www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/think/amp/ncna1042536

Meraas · 26/11/2020 09:15

I think they should have just stuck with the term racist, in the first place.

Why should they give white women this courtesy given the appalling behaviour they witness in the US from many white women?

Livelovebehappy · 26/11/2020 09:20

YANBU, but I couldn’t really be arsed to give this so much headspace. Like you say, different people get wound up by different things. If it bothers you, then YANBU to complain. In the grand scheme of things it’s doesnt bother me.

Meraas · 26/11/2020 09:24

Amazing how some women really are determined to hate other women.

Nope, I don’t hate women, I’m definitely a feminist, and that means I see that black and other minority ethnic women are right at the bottom of the pecking order, and I don’t want to tell them to shut up for using the term Karen. No problems with telling white men who use the term to fuck off.

BoudiccaD · 26/11/2020 09:29

Yabu. Presumably you got married for the first time a few years ago, when it was generally the done thing for women to change their name, so, yeah.

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 26/11/2020 09:32

You’ll find MNers silent when it comes to stereotypes about ‘Shaniqua

I dont like any stereotypes based on names, didnt like sharon and tracy

I don’t really like gammon, chav, boomer, snowflake etc but I appreciate that they are used as shorthand and I understand thats why karen is used as well

And I’m afraid (both in the being polite and worried that someone is going to yell at me) that i dont know the shaniqua stereotype. But im sure I won’t like that either

SusannaSpider · 26/11/2020 09:32

Why should they give white women this courtesy given the appalling behaviour they witness in the US from many white women?

Calling someone a racist, is seen a courtesy?
You are stating very clearly, that you are calling out women. Singling out women? You are definitely not a feminist.

SusannaSpider · 26/11/2020 09:33

Correction - is seen as a courtesy?

Deadringer · 26/11/2020 09:39

Yanbu. It irks me that womens names are assumed to be temporary.

C8H10N4O2 · 26/11/2020 09:44

You’ll find MNers silent when it comes to stereotypes about ‘Shaniqua’

And the sniggering so funny jokes about "L'a" and other prefixed names.

Paintedmaypole · 26/11/2020 09:47

A lot of racism is based on prejudice and stereotyping. How do you challenge it with more stereotyping and prejudice? I am sure some white women display very bad attitudes but not all middle aged women do. There is also a heavily ageist slant to this, Karen is a common name in the MIL generation, latter end of boomers. You can't fight prejudice with more prejudice. Extreme violent racists are often men who are also mysogynistic. I don't have "hurt feelings" at being challenged as a white women. I think it's good for everyone to take a really deep look at their own prejudices but I do resent being put in a box, labelled and dismissed. I don't see how that helps anyone who is experiencing worse prejudice.

GhoulWithADragonTattoo · 26/11/2020 09:49

YANBU It should ask for any other names you’ve been known by for both of you.

Paintedmaypole · 26/11/2020 09:50

I dislike any name from any culture being used as a stereotype, also childrens names being used to signify a prejudice (chavvy?).

Melaniaswig · 26/11/2020 10:04

@Neron

YABU. Women do change their surnames upon marriage, men do not. Of course they will not assume that about a man. Go ahead and complain if it will make you feel better.
My husband bucked the trend and changed his name to my name when we married.
Meraas · 26/11/2020 10:15

@SusannaSpider

Calling someone a racist, is seen a courtesy?
You are stating very clearly, that you are calling out women. Singling out women? You are definitely not a feminist.

No, you're saying that you want them to stop using Karen, I'm asking why they give that courtesy?

As I said way up thread, I don't use the term Karen, so no I'm not calling out women. I'm saying that I'm not offended by black women using the term to describe a particular type of entitled behaviour from white women. I'm an anti racist and a feminist.

emilyfrost · 26/11/2020 10:19

YABU. You were being ridiculous and I’m embarrassed on your behalf.

2Olives1Onion · 26/11/2020 10:33

Meraas: Karen was a term coined by black people in the US after abysmal treatment from white women. It's a shame that it was hijacked by white men on reddit but the reasons it was coined remain true to this day.

No. This is a specifically racist and sexist myth spread by misogynistic edgelord dudes on the internet at the expense of black American women - who have already, and repeatedly, asked people to STOP blaming black women for white men’s problems.

Sure, it’s common in black communities in the USA (among others) to use a personal name as a general or descriptive term - your family or community know or know of the person and understand the shorthand. In my family - just for example - a Sylvie is someone who complains if you put hot peppers in food and a Lenny is someone who tells the same story over and over and a Roscoe is a handsome man who’ll flake at the first signs of trouble. (The Original Roscoe was married to my great grand aunt and would be over 100 if he were still alive, so some of these names endure.) If someone’s family or community has or had an objectionable Karen, then go ahead. No one here is suggesting going into communities and policing local language.

However, widespread and online use of “Karen” as a universal pejorative doesn’t originate in US black communities as claimed. Its origin is in Reddit, where a (white) teenager in California created a story about his fictional “ex-wife” and launched a subreddit “fuckyoukaren” encouraging men to vent their anger against non-submissive women. Surprise, surprise - the sub went viral, and (some) men vented their anger against women, often in an extremely violent sex-based and sexualized way. Stop blaming black women for white men’s problems.

Don’t take my word for it - you can go on Reddit right now (you don’t need a login) and do a search for Karen - but I warn you, it’s an unpleasant education in rape culture. Now, do a search for any male name you like - Kevin and Chad have been suggested on this thread - and compare results. And once you’re done - stop blaming black women for white men’s problems.

Even if you somehow remarkably are completely insulated from history, reality, and context and genuinely believe you’re fighting the good fight against racism by shouting “Karen!” on the internet, you’re wrong. Do you call your female friends and relatives cunts, and then snigger about how “it just means a coin purse - it’s a compliment!” Well, maybe you do - and if I see you, I’m going to call you out for that too. Stop blaming black women for white men’s problems.

Regardless of your intentions, VladmirsPoutine, Bluntness100, and Meraas, your arguments on this thread are blatantly and transparently racist and sexist (and anti-American, but I’m not about to go to battle on that front, at least not here and now). To put it bluntly - you’re racist and sexist as fuck. Stop blaming black women for white men’s problems.

As for instances of racist and sexist terms being used by women, black people, black women - yeah, internalized misogyny and internalized racism are commonplace; how could they NOT be in a system which self-replicates racism and sexism? Stop blaming black women for white men’s problems.

We, as individuals, don’t have to capitulate to and replicate that system. I say we shouldn’t. What you do is on you - but don’t come on here trying to sell your racism and sexism as progressive and not expect a pushback. You’re going to get a pushback, my dudes: British people aren’t stupid. You are gonna get a whole hell of a lot of very well deserved pushback, and THIS black American woman loves to see it. STOP blaming black women for white men’s problems.

SusannaSpider · 26/11/2020 10:38

No, you're saying that you want them to stop using Karen, I'm asking why they give that courtesy?

I said racists should be called racists (not some random women's name) you seem to be saying why should you give white women that courtesy.

@Paintedmaypole

That's pretty much it, though I'm not a boomer, that's my parent's generation.

Paintedmaypole · 26/11/2020 10:39

That's a brilliant, educational post 2olives1onion

Meraas · 26/11/2020 10:43

@2Olives1Onion that's a long post, but you're entire premise is flawed as 'Karen' having originated on Reddit has been debunked.

Meraas · 26/11/2020 10:43

*your

SusannaSpider · 26/11/2020 10:46

@2Olives1Onion

Fabulous post.

Meraas · 26/11/2020 10:46

I said racists should be called racists (not some random women's name) you seem to be saying why should you give white women that courtesy.

But by extension you're saying black women should stop using Karen. I'm not black (funny how you and others have assumed that), so I'm asking why black women should give white women this courtesy given the appalling behaviour they witness in the US from many white women?

ZolaGrey · 26/11/2020 10:52

You are not being unreasonable, patriarchal fuckery around marriage never fails to piss me off.

SusannaSpider · 26/11/2020 10:53

I'm not black (funny how you and others have assumed that)

Haven't assumed anything, although I have used 'you' as in you are saying why should white women have that courtesy.

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